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No Way Out
Welcome to the No Way Out podcast where we examine the variety of domains and disciplines behind John R. Boyd’s OODA sketch and why, today, more than ever, it is an imperative to understand Boyd’s axiomatic sketch of how organisms, individuals, teams, corporations, and governments comprehend, shape, and adapt in our VUCA world.
No Way Out
DIANA: NATO's Innovation Accelerator with Brigadier General Imre Porkolab | Ep 34
Imagine having an exclusive tour guide to explore the intricate world of NATO, defense innovation, and leadership. That's exactly what we have in Brigadier General Imre Porkolab, an esteemed Hungarian officer who brings his 30 years of service and extensive experience with NATO to our conversation. Imre unfolds his journey of building Hungary's national defense innovation ecosystem, shares his unique perspectives on leadership challenges, and discusses the pivotal role of the human element in military operations.
Brigadier General Porkolab discusses the relevance of military principles in the civilian sector, especially in dealing with the unpredictable and rapidly changing world. He emphasizes the importance of adopting new technologies in both the military and civilian organizations, but highlights that the key lies in how these technologies are adopted and utilized by people. The episode also touches upon the challenges faced by militaries, such as bureaucracy and interoperability, as they try to accelerate innovation and adapt to new technologies. Additionally, the Defense Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic (DIANA) is mentioned as a network of nations aiming to reimagine NATO's technology development process and speed up innovation.
We then stride into the enigmatic world of leadership training. We discuss a unique curriculum designed to fortify future leaders with resilience and stress management techniques, revealing how technology is cleverly interwoven into the program's design. Furthermore, Imre shares how lessons from military training translate into the civilian sector. And before we wrap up, this episode serves as a treasure trove for those intrigued by military innovation and leadership. Buckle up and enjoy the ride!
Defense Innovation Accelerator for the North Atlantic (DIANA)
Imre Porkolab on LinkedIn
Mathias Corvinus Collegium - MCC
NWO Intro with Boyd
March 25, 2025
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Hey, good afternoon, good morning, good evening everybody. This is Brian Ponch Rivera. We're on no way out Today. We have Brigadier General Imre Porkolab, who is coming to us live from. Are you in Budapest today, is that correct? Yeah, i'm in Budapest right now. Great, great to see you again. We're going to take a look at innovation inside defense. So, if you think about NATO, if you think about what's going on globally, we want to try to understand a little bit better. how does NATO, in this case, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, view innovation? And, more importantly, we want to get some perspectives from Brigadier General Porkolab on how innovation is going inside of NATO forces today. So, with that being said, Imre, would you mind introducing yourself to the group, to the crowd, today?
Imre Porkolab:Yeah, hi, i'm a Hungarian officer, 30 plus years of service. I spent most of my time with special forces, building up the soft capability here in Hungary. I've also spent eight plus years in the US, mainly with NATO, so I've served with the Latcoman Transmission being the national rep in there. I spent three years in the Pentagon as well being Sapti's representative to the Pentagon so the top NATO guy at that time. Returning back home to Hungary building up the Hungarian national defense innovation ecosystem.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's awesome. So, Imre, we have an interesting history as well. When you were in the US by 2018-2019, we connected and we went up to Quantico, Virginia, together and we looked at the Cynefin framework as well as John Boyd's OODA loop to kind of understand how they relate or if there's any type of connection there. One of the interesting things we talked about during that time is you were about to step out of the military, i believe, and go do some leadership courses and bring some lessons over from the military. Can you walk us through what you did and why you thought you could bring lessons from the military over to the civilian sector inside of Hungary?
Imre Porkolab:Well, i've published about three books now here in Hungary. Sorry, those are all in Hungarian, but, mindy, i got these ideas when I came back home and I had these talks with business leaders. I could see that the problem sets are very much the same in the military and also that they are facing The whole VUCA thing about the world becoming unpredictable and everything just speeding up around us seemed to be a common problem. They seem to understand that. The military has a long-standing understanding, so we've been dealing with leadership and the challenges around it for hundreds of years. These lessons can be translated into civilian sector as well, and upon returning to Hungary, i spent two years outside of the normal traditional military circles. I was building up a leadership academy here at MCC, the Metis Corvinus Collegium, which is a non-traditional educational institution. So I spent most of my time with 20-somethings and we learned from each other And my understanding was that all these lessons that we are bringing from the military are pretty much applicable in the civilian sector as well.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Right. So I was just glancing at the book Sapiens. I read it several years ago and there's an interesting quote in there. It says up until the 19th century, the vast majority of military revolutions were the product of organizational rather than technological change. So organizations, business organizations, looked to the military and said hey, what are you doing in there to create agility, innovation, resilience and safety? And that you can look back 20-plus years and look. You know, over the last, like the Lean Startup Initiative and Stephen Blank's work in the customer development model, borrowing from John Boyd's Doodle Loop And today, when you look at what the military is trying to do, we're trying to, you know, look for dual-use technology, drones, artificial intelligence.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:We're going after technology. So this is a little bit different than what we're known for in the military. But I do want to throw one of the quotes to you, and that is from John Boyd, and I think it's a very important quote. It says machines don't fight wars. People do, and they use their minds right. So I have to ask you, emre, brigadier, general Porcolov, are we heading in the right direction when we're looking for new technologies from the civilian sector?
Imre Porkolab:You know I'm not just a Star Wars fan, but I'm also a great June fan, so I was reading Frank Herbert and then Breyer Herbert's books quite a few of them And the same question has been raised.
Imre Porkolab:You know, in the 1960s and 80s, later on, when they were writing these books, you know whether it's about humans and the human mind or the sort of the, is technology going to prevail? And it's interesting that you know sci-fi writers have been dealing with this issue 50, 60 years ago, but this is more relevant than ever And if someone watches the big movie right now, by June, probably it will come across again. I think that this is ultimately a human issue And it's not a technological issue. And this is not just about creating that technology And that's what we are dealing with in the Hungarian Defence Forces and elsewhere in NATO and other countries as well But how we adopt these technologies and how we're going to fight differently with these technologies. And I think that's an even bigger question than how we speed up the technological development processes which many countries are mainly concentrating on.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah. So let's dive into why does the military, our militaries, need to look outside to? let's just let me just give you some more context here. So, finding efficiencies or, you know, creating an efficient organization, instead of spending 20 years to develop an aircraft carrier or 15 years to do something, we're trying to accelerate this into a shorter amount of time, And that's not a technology issue, and we've had guests on our show that talked about Newport, new Shipbuilding and how fast they could build ships back in the 40s and 50s and where we are today. So why is it so many Department of Defence, nato institutions are looking at technology and not necessarily how to create efficiencies, how to create performance, how to do all that inside of their own organizations?
Imre Porkolab:There's three stories that I want to. That's a very complex question And the first one that comes to mind that when I was in the Pentagon back then probably that was in 2016, 17 when Aston Carter came in and you guys sent out the DIUX to Silicon Valley. So there has been a shift and the Defense Minister have seen it and the sort of the destruction that was coming from these small garage companies was enormous in other industries and the military started to feel the effects as well. So the DIUX was sent to Silicon Valley and the first task they had is how do they get a contract within that timeframe when a startup is still able to do that, and normally the Pentagon takes about two years to make a decision like that? that was just unacceptable. So after that they solved the problem and on an average of 47 days they were able to get to a contract, so, mission accomplished. From there on they were able to sort of get along with the smaller entities And the sort of speeding up of big technology development.
Imre Porkolab:We had Roper. At that time when I was working in the Pentagon was still with SCOSO strategic capabilities office, but he later on became the acquisition chief for the Air Force And I was reading a lot about how they are developing the sixth generation aircraft with digital technologies. Instead of this taking 20 to 30 years, maybe it will just take two to three years. If that's true with a platform as complex as an aircraft, then you can do it with everything else. But actually what happens then is that you're not going to have that platform for the next 30 to 40 to 50 years, but you're going to have a new platform coming in every three years and you need to adapt to the new technology and you need to be able to fight differently. So the strategic sort of goal there is that, yes, if you're changing technology that fast, how do you prepare the organization that it can move with the speed of technology as well and it can adapt that technology and reinvent itself in a very agile and rapid manner? So I think that's the main question, but the same if this is just one country with the US. Just imagine 31 countries in NATO. So interoperability is very important with NATO.
Imre Porkolab:Nato's decision making process is a four year cycle. They call it NDP, the NATO defense planning process, and actually it starts with a political guidance, so all the leadership agrees on okay, this is where we are headed. Actually, act's work is very crucial in that one. They are creating a strategic foresight. So they are feeding this strategic foresight. Then they give the direction and they are creating what they call targets. And these targets are capability gaps that NATO nations are developing in order to live a better, safer future. So this is a four year cycle.
Imre Porkolab:So just imagine that if we can create a new platform now, let's say in two to three years, or there is a disruption in AI every six weeks, then how do we run a planning based cycle which lasts for four years? So the question in NATO was raised a couple of years ago that how do we actually create new pathways for digital technologies? And these new pathways became the emerging disruptive technological challenges which NATO identified that, okay, we need to deal with these, because in the normal, traditional ways it will just not suffice. So I'm not saying that we need to get rid of all the planning based tools, but even the NATO started to think about okay, what do we do now? What are the new things that we can do, and how do we feed these new developments in a very rapid and agile manner? And now the question is okay, how do we push it down to the warfighter faster than anyone else.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah. So one of the challenges I see here is are we talking about innovation or just fighting a bureaucracy right? So, having worked inside Defense Innovation Unit inside the DOD, i was a government employee here in the US and I've worked at NATO, actually, which we joked around, not after two o'clock or no action talk. Only That was inside NATO as a little joke. But where is the real crux of the problem within the military complex right now? Is it a bureaucracy problem or is it an innovation problem? Because I've seen a lot of fantastic innovations come from within the DOD or I'm talking about Department of Defense here in NATO at large. Where is it? Where's?
Imre Porkolab:the real problem? Well, you can look at it from a national perspective or you can look at it from an international perspective. If I look at it from an international perspective as a NATO, then the real problem is interoperability. So just imagine that you have 31 nations and some nations are really getting there With the speed of light, they're innovating, they're adapting that technology and they're fighting with autonomous vehicles, and this is really high-tech. The rest of the nations, if they're not catching up, then you have immediately an interoperability problem.
Imre Porkolab:And since we have to stand together and we have to fight together, i think that these things need to be harmonized. And NATO is a margamation of nations. So when NATO fights together, each nation puts in different capabilities and those capabilities need to fit together. So then you have your problems. For Drupal they're even more, not to mention even quantum computing and stuff like that. It's a simple communication issue that you have to solve. So I think that the main problem is really not bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is there for a reason and bureaucracy can be a great thing. Once we have that decision-making with NATO and we have a consensus and we all agree which direction we are headed, i think that implementation is a different kind of minimal. So when we don't have seven years to generate forces, to train together to create that interoperability and go to war together, but we have much less time for that, that's when real pressure is really felt, and I think that's mainly an adoption problem.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:All right, so I want to switch over to DIANA, which is let me make sure I get this right Defense Innovation Accelerator for North Atlantic. Did I get that correct? That's correct, yeah, okay. So DIANA, you're part of that. Is that part of ACT? Allied Command Transformation?
Imre Porkolab:DIANA. Actually, DIANA is well, then, again, an agreement between the nations, so the heads of states. Two years ago they agreed that they will create DIANA, the Defense Innovation Accelerator for North Atlantic, which is, in a sense, a network, a network of nations who will try to reimagine the way that NATO develops technologies and really speed things up. So that was the basic idea, and when Diana was called upon, each nation had a national rep who was delegated into a board of directors And I'm the Hungarian rep in there And I was also nominated as the vice chair within the board of directors last December.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:All right, yeah, i saw that on your LinkedIn profile, so congratulations. It's a. I was kind of expecting not to see you in uniform again, but this is a, i think, a welcome surprise to have you back in and doing what you're doing. So I want to come back to Norfolk, virginia. You lived. I don't know if you lived here or not. You did work at ACT, didn't you?
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, I am Okay, so there's some pretty interesting things that happened here in Norfolk, Virginia, with Ally Command Transformation. Francis Zynga, for example, spent a lot of time here and he wrote his science strategy and warfare thesis. Well, I believe we was here in town. and then you get into some other great things And I'm not sure if it was the Professor Alberts on Network-centric Warfare, if he was working with NATO several years ago. But the foundation of what many people call agility can be connected back to some of these great organizational thinking that was going on at NATO.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:One of the new NATO initiatives is really in the cognitive warfare domain and I'm going to read something from their site And I want to kind of see where you guys. Diana fits into this, And we touched on this briefly. It says warfare has trained change dramatically. with advanced technologies, whole society involvement and increased global interconnectivity. More people are unable to differentiate between legitimate and manipulated information. Improving the alliance-wide understanding of cognitive warfare is a priority for NATO member nations and partners. Is this also a priority for Diana? the cognitive warfare space? Yeah, before we begin, there.
Imre Porkolab:Let me just say this I think that NATO is I mean, the structure of NATO is just perfectly positioning the organization to deal with today's VUCA challenges. So ACO Ally Command Operations in Mons, Belgium, they're dealing with the, let's say, the everyday job of generating the other forces and actually overseeing the operations. So that's the warfare command. Act, ally Command Transformation in Norfolk, virginia, on the other hand, is a warfare development command. So they are looking into the future, they are figuring out what we need and they are engineering how we can build these capabilities for the future. So together these two strategic commands fit nicely And I think that ACT has the luxury that is very much needed today to actually look into the future, have the luxury to innovate and also test and experiment with a lot of things, because some of the things will not be successful, let's admit it. And yes, cognitive warfare has been on the forefront of the thinking of ACT leadership for quite some time.
Imre Porkolab:At the DIANA BOD we had a huge debate. I'm not saying that we didn't, but we had to narrow down the number of challenges that DIANA will put out within the first year. And actually this year there will be three challenges. They are already out. We can talk about these, but the human health issue and the cognitive issue is not there. Having said that, this is very much on the forefront of the thinking of DIANA as well, and especially the managing director, deep Chana, mentioned that this might not be a challenge, but what he calls this might be an opportune activity, which is supporting the activity that they are going to be putting out there. He understands that biotech is developing really fast and everything that supports the adoption of technology within the forces, which is cognitive development in and of itself, needs to be put in focus as well.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:And then, moving on to some of your current challenges, can you walk us through how are you partnering with folks in Europe and North America for these challenges? Can you give us any success stories or I know you're only a few- Well, we're in the European Union.
Imre Porkolab:There are quite a few sort of projects that we can collect nations around. One is called the European Defence Fund, edf, and that really supports dual use technologies. So in a good old fashioned way, we are putting together it's about 1 billion euros a little bit more than that That's coming out in different funds this year only, and this is a six year project where countries and who are adamant on dealing with dual use technologies can create consortiums of small and medium enterprises And this is not really for the big players but for the small ones And then at least three countries need to apply for these. So within the EU there is a lot of things are happening that is helping the European countries to build up their defence here on this NACA. On the side of NATO, DIANA just opened up the HQ in London at Imperial College. There will be regional offices in Halifax, toronto and in Estonia, tallinn, opening up this year as well. There are 12 accelerator sites all around the place. If you Google, like the DIANA accelerators and test sites, you can get the whole map. There are 100 plus test centres. These are test and validation centres that the nations are actually putting into that big NATO hat, who will be helping the innovators throughout the NATO countries in order to achieve success, and this works in a very agile and rapid fashion.
Imre Porkolab:So the challenges are out. Now The companies are really putting forward their ideas And within the first six months they need to prove themselves, and then the next challenges will be out, and more challenges are coming. So right now it's three, but when we reach FOC with Diana, probably it's going to be like 10 challenges out per year. 10 companies will be selected per challenge, so that's about 100 companies being handled at one set only, and, as you see, it's going to be like an accumulating effect. Those companies who have already been selected beforehand will still be in the pipeline. So if that's happening, we will see a lot of new technologies coming out in the next two years supporting various programs.
Imre Porkolab:Right now it's energy resilience, the safe and secure information sharing and sensor technology that the other challenges are mainly focusing on.
Imre Porkolab:And then, if one can apply, the only requirement is that you need to be an enterprise that's incorporated in a NATO country. The other main thing is that this is becoming not just transparent but also helps in multiple ways. So Diana is not asking for your IP. So if you apply for these challenges, the IP rides Diana will not take their cut at all. So it will give you not just financial support it's 100,000 bucks in the first round when you get selected and later on you can go for more money But we'll give you education, we'll help your organization to scare your technology And obviously those 100 plus test sites and test centers are there to help you to validate and develop your technologies as well. So this is a very complex system and in the last three or four years it has developed multiple times and I really am hopeful that this will help the whole of NATO to counter challenges all around the world And then we can create that safer and more secure globe and environment.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So kind of a change of subject, but I think it may connect back to helping these companies develop their products. Back in 2020, you had a military design conference in Budapest and during that conference you had a lot of folks that really understood complex adaptive systems. I can't remember all the names there, but there are folks from SpaceCom, folks from Israel, folks from all over the world actually were there, and this is right before the big outbreak in COVID. But there's a lot of lessons I think we talked about there. One was design thinking and complexity thinking. So, based on your leadership, expertise and understanding of teamwork, will Diana be helping these smaller organizations learn about good complexity thinking, about connecting things to the customers? Are you guys going to be involved with that?
Imre Porkolab:I don't know the specifics yet because the BOD will be informed about the education package in September on a BOD meeting which actually going to be held here in Budapest, but that's a good idea. So I will definitely relay that to the DX team And I know that he's a great supporter of design thinking and he understands it very well. So Deep Chana has built startups, have been teaching stuff as well, so he has a very good understanding in complexity thinking.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So, on your experience with design inside the military and again, you're at the leading front of this when it comes to understanding complexity theory and such especially when you're out here in Virginia and up in DC When you evaluate how military thinkers think about design or complexity thinking. where are their strengths and weaknesses? What could they improve here shortly so they can start to be more innovative?
Imre Porkolab:Yeah, i believe that we have to find the middle ground. So far too long we have been teaching the other planning system. So how do we plan ahead? And that planning system doesn't really give you room to maneuver. So, mainly with financial planning, i've seen it so many times that once you plan ahead, you don't have that wiggle room in order to actually bring in your ideas, to experiment and tinker around with new ideas, and I think that the understanding is there right now. So you need to create that what I call adaptive space where you can actually play with things, and in your financial systems as well, you can create that.
Imre Porkolab:This is my saying Las Vegas money that you just put in there and see what comes out of it, and this is definitely not wasted money. And within the system, you need to find that threshold How many percentages? that you know it depends on different nations. The other thing is that you need to connect the military folks from the very beginning the operators with the end users and the developers, because this is very important. We today I'm just coming from a demonstration a small Hungarian company that has developed and it's like a miniature aircraft that can be used for air defense systems because it can generate a signal that looks like a much bigger aircraft. It's a very cheap thing, but from the very beginning, we have connected the Hungarian end users with these developers and it has been the same thing throughout the process.
Imre Porkolab:And I think that design comes in here because I've seen so many things that designers they go away with the technological specifications that were given to them. They come back with something that they believe is going to be the perfect solution, but the UX design is really not there. So I think that those garages where the operators and the developers meet are absolutely important. And the next level is the strategic level for design thinking. I think that opening up the opportunities for strategic leaders today is just essential. So there are no clear cut answers. There are new and new challenges coming up every day. So the success depends on today that you have more options to choose from, and, in my opinion, design really helps you to generate more options out from the traditional pathways, and then considering these options at least, and foregaming them and then building them into your more traditional planning systems can be that hybrid that you can use in the future.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:All right. And then another question When you stepped out of uniform I think you did this briefly, i can't remember, i was always in- uniform.
Imre Porkolab:I just went to teach for about two years.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Okay.
Imre Porkolab:You saw me a lot in service.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's right. So walk us through what you were teaching there, just so our listeners can understand what you were bringing over from the military.
Imre Porkolab:So the idea was here in Hungary that the traditional education system can't provide everything for future leaders. So my assumption was with building up we called it Academy for Leading Change Is that first of all, you shouldn't just get the traditional MBA courses. So I looked at how MBA is being taught. There's a lot of management thinking in there, by the way, and the soft leadership skills are hardly taught there And that's still very academic at least in most places that I've looked at and not very practical.
Imre Porkolab:So we turned this around and the curriculum that we have built there was very pragmatic. It's all the sort of education that we have provided ended up in some kind of a practical thing when you have to put this thing into real life practice. It was mainly for 20-somethings. Normally, you know, for MBA students, you know they are somewhere between 35 to 45. So they already have their concepts about you know, the way the world works and how they became that sort of mid-level leader, that they are right there.
Imre Porkolab:But we tried to create a curriculum for 20-somethings before they actually go into leadership positions and in a hope that they will remember what we taught them And they can remember back, you know, in seven, eight years' time, and they can be thankful for that. So those were the main differences, and we taught them a lot of soft skills on resilience, you know how to handle stress. We brought in technology as well And we were, you know, measuring them by performing different tasks, and they really enjoyed it. So that was an experiment in and of itself and that's still a curriculum and a course. This is a 10-months-long curriculum that's still ongoing at MCC And, by the way, that was not for the military, so that was for civilian 20-somethings altogether.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Okay. So I want to ask you another question about John Boyd's influence on the way you think, and where did you come in contact with not only OODA loop but his work, and then how did that affect you as a leader in the military?
Imre Porkolab:Yeah, well, obviously, when I spent time in the United States, John Boyd came across me a couple of times, and first of all it was the Udalup, when I started to understand that he has created a philosophy of a strategy let's put it that way.
Imre Porkolab:And actually the OODA loop as a strategy is really interesting because if I link this up to, let's say, to the technological development, what I just said before, so if this is true, if we are creating a new platform every two to three years, let's say, in a new aircraft that's being introduced to the forces, then the whole observable oriented side and act wheel starts turning And you can go into a conflict with, let's say, a six generation equipment and then you can just change gears while you are in there.
Imre Porkolab:And if you're using John Boyd's thinking and you're adopting this thinking into the organizational methods, the way we learn and I think that organizational learning is the key in here then you would be able to push this technology down to the warfighter faster than everyone else. If you're doing that, then you will be ahead of your competitors all the time And then you can create strategic surprises, which was the whole sort of thing about John Boyd's thinking as well. So I think at the strategic level that would be the essence And this is where I would go with and design backwards of how I create those organizational learning methods that I can push these technologies down to the warfighters faster.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:All right, and then what's in your future? What comes after Diana for you?
Imre Porkolab:I have no idea. I mean, i'm wearing three hats right now. I'm the Minister of the Commissioner for Defence Innovation, so I have my MOD job. I'm also building up the Hungary and Defence Innovation Institute in here. This is where we are sitting in the Institute's offices right now And I also have the Diana sort of function. So for the next two years that will give me plenty enough, and perhaps I can come back and have a different chat and see where life takes me.
Imre Porkolab:What I see is that the opportunities are endless, so the world is really headed towards a certain direction, and that knowledge that we are accumulating in the military about how we are testing things, how we are actually organizing and leading people in war and using this technology in a different way, is applicable in all kinds of other areas as well. So I like to talk to all kinds of folks about these and see what are their problems, what they are dealing with on an everyday basis. One thing is for sure About five years ago, when I talked about WUKA here in Hungary, everyone was looking at me and they said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you've been to Iraq and Afghanistan and this is a military thing. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand, but right now, in an energy crisis and then with the war in Ukraine and also, you know, i don't know how we are with the pandemic, but people, they don't need to be explained about uncertainty and complexity any longer. They feel it on their skin on an everyday basis and they can see it in their own jobs as well.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, likewise when we were talking about VUCA years ago and now everybody writes about it in Harvard Business Review and they try to change it up the bani or banana or whatever it is, and like it's the same. It's the external environment you're trying to describe. You know, and it's to every one of us it's a little bit different, but I like what you just said. We all feel it, we're sensing it every single day. So, hey, i want to turn it over to you to see if you have any questions about what we're doing here, with No Way Out. Anything goes to you, so I just want to throw it your way.
Imre Porkolab:And I just wanted to congratulate you on your work as well, ponsch. I've been, i mean ever since we met, and you introduced me to a lot of people as well, and that was fantastic, and I think this is very much needed. So my feeling in here that you know, when we talked a couple of years ago, when we first met, it was still, you know, an idea out there, and quite a few people understood that. Right now, the necessity to bring in these new ideas are clearer than ever And no one is ever questioning that, whether if it's needed or not. I think that right now, we are talking about the how, how we can bring this kind of knowledge to the warfighter or to anyone else in between. You know who is dealing with complexity to better understand the world and actually make better decisions as a leader.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, let me ask you this have you used like Cynefin or Red Teaming or anything like that within NATO recently?
Imre Porkolab:Well with NATO? I really don't know, because in the past five years, you know I'm out of the sort of everyday NATO sort of exercises and stuff like that, but within the Hungarian forces, we have been dealing with this. So, Cynefin, i have explained it to our strategic leadership as well And they found it really useful. And there is a lot of wargaming and Red Teaming going on right now that we are doing, because what the Hungarian Defence Forces is doing since 2016 is nothing short of a digital transformation. So we had, like T-72s and now we have a Lopo-2, a7 coming in very shortly. So just imagine several skipping, several generations and really, you know, transforming to a digital. It really creates a lot of questions that the force needs to us on an everyday basis.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's a great way to think about it, as a digital transformation, going from the older tanks to what's new. All right, ember. well, hey, i really appreciate your time today, and what we do after this is we stick around and just have a quick conversation about anything you want to cover. So how can our listeners find where you are and what Diana is doing? Do you have any links for them or any ideas where they can go? look at the latest and go.
Imre Porkolab:Yeah, i mean yeah, you just punch in Diana and then Defence Innovation accelerator for the North Atlantic. It will come right at you. If you are a small and medium enterprise, you are just in time. I'm not sure when this podcast episode is going to be aired, but the first challenges were out just two weeks ago, and so you can still apply And I would encourage everyone to do that and try out. You know, throw your ring, your hat in the ring and just try yourself out. If you want to look me up, probably the best way to reach out to me is through LinkedIn. So just look me up on LinkedIn and we can have a chat in there.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Awesome. Well, I appreciate your time today, Emre, And we'll stick around for no way out extra time here in a moment. Thank you.
Imre Porkolab:Thanks a lot.
