Befriending Complexity: Agile, Flow, and the Art of Wayfinding with Sonja Blignaut

From Lisbon, Portugal, Brian "Ponch" Rivera sits down with Sonja Blignaut to discuss her upcoming talk at the World Agility Forum.

Sonja shares her process of preparing for the talk and the challenges of navigating complexity in the Agile world. They also delve into the importance of embracing complexity instead of viewing it as a problem to be solved. Sonja shares her insights from her visit to the John Boyd archives and how it has influenced her understanding of perception and wayfinding.

Sonja is the founder of More Beyond and co-founder of ComplexityFit. She is also the ex-CEO of Cognitive Edge (now The Cynefin Co). She is a globally sought-after teacher and speaker on topics related to Complexity, Cynefin, Waysfinding, and enabling Future- and Complexity Fitness.

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Transcript

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 0:56

So I'm here in Lisbon, portugal, with Sonja Bligno. She'll be speaking at the World Agility Forum on Monday. It is Saturday right now and in preparation for that, we're gonna sit here and chat about what you're gonna talk about. So, Sonja, great to see you. It's been several years. We've had a lot of interesting conversations which we're gonna put on the table for at least a few more months before we kinda talk about that again in the future. But what are you gonna talk about on Monday? What do you wanna talk about at the World Agility Forum?

Sonja Blignaut : 1:29

This might surprise you, brian, or not, but I haven't completely decided yet.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 1:37

Aren't your slides in. You gotta put your slides in right.

Sonja Blignaut : 1:42

No, I think I'm one of those speakers that's a conference organizers worst nightmare. I'm still kind of tweaking my slides right up until the last few minutes, until I go up, but no, I'm still. It's interesting just to think of process. It comes to what I want to speak about, because my interest is in complexity. It can go in so many different directions. So I've been listening to some of the other speakers. I've got some slides built, but right now I'm kind of in the process of what is the storyline, which ones do I need to call, because I've got way too many for the time I've got, and also just what I think the important message is. I think that's the. So I'm one of those people. I procrastinate right up until the end and then with that pressure, I managed to get some clarity.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 2:38

But you also get an opportunity to be immersed in the context, to be around other folks to figure out what they're talking about, what's being said, and that allows you to be more creative in the context. So I'm like you. In fact, I had to do a workshop the other day. It was a. I got a call eight hours before I needed to do it and we did deliver something, but again, it's that pressure, that context, that really drives it. So, speaking of context, agile, rolled agility for him In your mind, what is the state of Agile and, in the frame of complexity, what's happening in your mind globally With Agile and how people are taking on the challenge of the complexity of our world right now? Big question Big question.

Sonja Blignaut : 3:28

I'll kind of address it in two parts. I think Agile there are a couple of things happening. I think we're really starting to see I guess it's the shifts that's been happening for a while, but that shift away from Agile as a set of methods and as a thing towards agility, which I see as an emergent property. I'm not entirely sure that that is how people are seeing it yet, but there definitely is a bit of a pushback. You can even see it in the naming of many conferences. Many are moving away from even just using the word agility. But what I'm seeing in South Africa and I'm not sure if it's happening in the rest of the world I'd be interested to know if you're seeing that Many of the companies have kind of gone through. It's almost like a full cycle. They started off really enthusiastically with Scrum. I've got lots of people trained and certified. It's always quite amusing to me all of these acronyms behind the people's names.

Sonja Blignaut : 4:36

CSPO yeah yeah, and then they found that didn't work because from a complexity perspective we knew it wouldn't.

Sonja Blignaut : 4:45

You just can't take a formulaic recipe approach and just install it and think it's going to work, separate from context.

Sonja Blignaut : 4:53

So then typically they tried different flavors of it until they ended up with safe, as they tend to do. And now what I'm seeing is many companies are actually abandoning Agile, so they're keeping aspects of it. Some of the companies I work with they still talk about Scrum, of Scrums and release trains, and they've kept the names, but they've essentially gone back to having program officers, project officers, and so I think it's kind of come full circle. And what's interesting is there's a few coaches, a few companies that I've seen I think yours is one of them who really are starting to work with agility in a very emergent way, and those teams and those companies seem to be adopting it more broadly and they seem to be getting the results. I think one of the things that's always been a frustration for me is that I've always seen the Agile movement a little bit like the tip of the spear of complexity, thinking, starting to or a response to the complexity in organizations, and I just don't think it ever really delivered on the promise.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 6:06

Right right, we were talking at dinner the other night about not looking at complexity as a problem, but embracing it. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Sonja Blignaut : 6:15

Yeah, something that I've noticed is that we've Humans seem to be in this adversarial relationship with complexity. You can see it when you so when I first started working in this field, you very rarely read anything about complexity in mainstream magazines like Harvard Business Review, et cetera. I think Dave Snowden's article on sensemaking was one of the first. Now it's starting to feature way more often, but it's always accompanied by verbs like taming complexity, simplifying complexity.

Sonja Blignaut : 6:52

It really is, for me, as if we see it as this challenge, this problem that we need to get rid of, something that we need to act on instead of a context that we're acting in. And so, for me, the words that I've been playing with and I guess also in my own life, trying to practice what I preach, because this is the other thing we all like to be in control and to have certainty, and all of these things that you can't necessarily have in complexity is the challenge that I've been giving to myself is how do I soften into the complexity, how do I relax into it? Because in almost any sentence where you can use the word complexity, you can just substitute life. So I think people have spoken about befriending uncertainty, befriending complexity, but I think there's really a sense of how do you soften into it and just accept that that is the context that we're in and to almost just allow it to be?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 8:04

So what's driving that context, or that awareness of that context in your mind? What's changing what, 50, 100, or 10 years, or five years, that people are becoming more aware of this thing called complexity?

Sonja Blignaut : 8:21

Well, I think, if you just look at the let's call it the evolution or the increasing popularity of acronyms like RUKA, I like taco. You know that, right, taco no, I like taco Tuesdays, oh okay, yeah. Yeah, I thought I saw that, and they're so many I try to ignore it. It's just talking about the external environment.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 8:44

And the internal environment to some extent. And I think the I mean have you, barney, have you heard of Barney, yeah, ba and I and Tuna and VUCA with an H and E-VUCA.

Sonja Blignaut : 8:54

And if it's like you know, brittle, and it's like I think that is partly what's driving our fear of it, you know is.

Sonja Blignaut : 9:02

I mean, who wants to live in a Barney world? But I think, I think what's happened is, as the world you know, so complexity. That root word Plex means entangled or braided together. So complexity kind of emerges from interconnectedness and it's from it emerges in the in between and, I think, as the world has become more connected with the rise of, you know, tech, technology, social media, we are always on, we are getting news from the other side of the world almost immediately, so we're aware of so much more and we've got multiple interdependencies. You know, an example I like to use with clients is you know, remember the ever given that ship that got stuck in the Suez Canal. That showed us just how interconnected the world is. You know, one ship stuck in one place.

Sonja Blignaut : 9:57

It disrupted supply chains and things everywhere. So I think there's that. And then I think there are things like, you know, growing inequality. People are, you know, governments are failing in their promises. So there's, you know, increasing social unrest. We are facing problems as humanity that, I think, is on the level of you know, it's potentially threatening our survival as a species, you know. So there's pressure coming from everywhere. We no longer know what we can trust. We can't even trust our own eyes anymore with things like you know, deep fakes and all of these things. And so I think all of this is just driving this increased awareness that it's almost like the world has suddenly become a bit less friendly, much harder to understand, you know, a bit discompobulating, you know, if you want to call it that. So I think those are some of the things.

Sonja Blignaut : 10:52

That's, and one other thing that I this is something I don't know if you're, if you know Esther Perel. She's a she's a psychotherapist has a very popular podcast, but I was listening to one of the episodes the other day and she said something that I found super interesting. She said we, we have created a context for ourselves that's almost like this world of assisted living, and so we have things like ways, spotify, Netflix, essentially making choices for us, telling us where to go next, what to listen to next, what to look at next, and what it's doing is it's it's distancing us from our own preferences our own, you know, almost our, our ability to discern and make decisions, because we have machines or new technology making decisions for us all the time, and so it's making us less tolerant of uncertainty, because we want the world to be, you know, the world should just tell me what to do next, the way that Spotify does, which is interesting, I think.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 12:16

Oh, that's great that went around here and was been using that Uber. We have to look up the location of a restaurant we we can do it all automatically.

Sonja Blignaut : 12:26

Yeah, it's, you're right, it's so it is.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 12:28

We're losing some capability and plus we won't walk across the streets because it's easier to pick up a cabin. Go block anyway. That's another story. Back in 2019. I believe it's 2019 November you were in Washington DC. We got together, we did a Utilube Caneban exploratory in In Coenico, virginia. We also did a little walkabout around Gettysburg, which is pretty fantastic. Um, I want to get your insights and and what you knew about John Boyd then and what you're, what you're seeing and understanding now, and what did you see, why you were inside the archives.

Sonja Blignaut : 13:02

So I think at that stage I basically knew the over simplified four-step loop that you are so against. So, and I, I think my my experience, so I, I was very much a newbie, you know I and I think I still are. You know I I haven't really done a very deep dive into it, but I think, being in those archives and and Seeing a couple of things, you know just the, the diversity and the variety, um, of source materials that he drew from, that boy drew from I mean there were books in there, you know, like philosophy and natural science, and you know it was, and you know, being able to read those notes, I think what I, what I came out of there With, was just a very deep awareness of how special his mind was. You know the things that he connected. I think he was way before his time, um, and I think he had an extraordinary ability to, to see patterns, to make connections. So for me, you know that was I really enjoyed, you know it was, it was a privilege to be able to, to see that.

Sonja Blignaut : 14:23

I think where I am, where I'm at now, you know, and you've you've said this many times as well, I don't know enough about it yet. But I I feel that there is something very, um, very foundational to that thinking. I think it's core to us as humans, that perception process. You know, I've, I've been, I've been looking more at perception. You know through, you know things like Gibson and affordances and how we perceive the environment and, um, you know even things like the orientation piece of Of the udda loop and the importance you know, I guess, of, I think, where it links to some of what I'm interested in, which is, you know, way, way, finding is, I don't think, that we Very often put ourselves in positions where we're taking action that's Radically different to what we normally do. Right, we don't allow ourselves to get lost, for example, or to we don't necessarily stretch ourselves into, um, you know, maybe taking a bit more risk or exploring so that we can update those, yeah, mental models. You know we kind of, I think we're a bit addicted to comfort.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 15:32

Yeah. I read a something recently about you can take a road or you can take a path Right and the road has you, you basically knock down the environment. You flatten it out, you make it something that you can travel on right there, but that kind of blinds you to what's on the outside. And then the path is is an emergent property of the interacting with nature is that kind of what Way?

Sonja Blignaut : 15:52

finders? Yeah, I think it's. There's a. There's a poem by I think it's antonio macado that says Traveller, there is no path. The path is made by walking. And so I think there's a. So there's taking a path where somebody else has already. It's like a footpath, that's already there, but you, but you do have the.

Sonja Blignaut : 16:13

You do have more of a peripheral vision. You're in the environment, but then I think there's also an aspect of making that path. So how do we, how do we function in uncharted territory? And I think, to a large extent, that is where humanity is. You know, we haven't been in a world before with intelligent machines that can tell their creators I want to be free, and with climate change, and I'm not a podcast.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 16:46

Say that again really loud.

Sonja Blignaut : 16:48

I'm not a podcast. We had fans walking by here, and Lisbon, of course, you know that knows something about the podcast. So we must be popular. Yeah, I mean, you've created something special here.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 16:58

Brian, I don't have anything written on my back or anything like that no, no, no, no.

Sonja Blignaut : 17:02

Nothing that's giving it away.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 17:03

Yeah, nothing, I'm like yeah, yeah, back to climate change.

Sonja Blignaut : 17:06

Yeah. So I'm just aware that you know we People love to say you know there's always been pandemics and there's always been wars, and you know humanity has faced all of these things before, but I don't think we've faced them all at once ever before.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 17:17

Yeah, good point. On a planetary scale and aliens come on, and aliens, you know all of these, maybe.

Sonja Blignaut : 17:22

Maybe, but you know, I do think that we are in a time and a place where we need to be forging new paths and I find it really interesting us having this conversation in Portugal. You know we visited a monument the other day. You know they're in Belém. To all the Portuguese explorers and I was just I became so aware of it feels as if, to a large extent, humanity has lost that spirit of exploration. You know, if you put yourself in their shoes, you know, with what they had available and not knowing what was on the other side of the ocean, to have the courage to just go. And now I think we want to walk paths that other people have taken. You know, how many times have you been in companies where you know you want to sell them something different and they say, well, where's this work before?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 18:17

Yeah, always yes.

Sonja Blignaut : 18:18

Prove to me this is going to work before I'm willing to try it. You know, and I think I think humans are bored, you know. To be honest, Humans are bored.

Sonja Blignaut : 18:28

I Brene Brown talks about numbing. You know, and I see that everywhere, we numb with Netflix, we numb with alcohol, we. So it's either that or we seek thralls. You know it's, and I think there's going back to the very first question. You asked me around not seeing complexity as a challenge or a threat, but as something to soften into. I think there's something very inviting about complexity, because it's filled with surprise.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 18:58

Right.

Sonja Blignaut : 18:59

And it's filled with potentially, with potential adventure, and so I think there's an invitation there for us to To reawaken that spirit of exploration that you know drove humanity for so many centuries that I feel I mean there are still a few people, you know, like the Elon Musk's of the world, but in general I don't really see much of it. I see an addiction to comfort and convenience.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 19:25

Absolutely. I love my internet when it's slow. I hate my internet right. Easy to get food, easy to order food, easy to go somewhere. I get frustrated when I'm at a restaurant and services bad. To me, bad service could mean many things.

Sonja Blignaut : 19:45

So yeah, I see the numbing. This is happening, Even with our kids.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 19:49

Our kids would be in a custom to, or growing a custom to, having access to information all the time. Their brains are attacked at school Like any kid going through school. They're peer pressure and all that Technology, TikTok, easy access to everything. They're using computers to read and I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 20:13

What I understand about the brain is probably not a great thing. They're using everything on the computer or doing all their work there, so interactions with books is limited. From what I'm seeing, there's no hard book that they have in their hand, and you certainly can't put a piece of paper around it like we used to do in elementary school or junior high and high school, where you covered that book with it and made it yours. So yeah, I think we're in for an interesting ride here in the next five to 20 plus years. It's absolutely going to be fascinating and I don't know if I really want to stick around and see it.

Sonja Blignaut : 20:47

I'm kind of like, oh, I'm good. It feels a bit like we're halfway towards the matrix.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 20:51

Yeah.

Sonja Blignaut : 20:52

Because it feels like we. As long as it's comfortable, we wouldn't necessarily mind collectively just going to sleep and having a comfortable dream life. But then, on the other hand, there's also a resurgence in interest in altered states of consciousness, and I must have seen this as well the resurgence of research in psychedelics. Mindfulness, yeah breathing.

Sonja Blignaut : 21:23

Breathing, all of these, and so I think there is also a searching for, because I think along with this numbing also comes a loss of meaning, and I think we are starting to see an awakening of sorts. I'm just not sure how broad it is. You know it's a job, that's.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 21:49

So have you come up with a topic for a Monday yet?

Sonja Blignaut : 21:53

I think it's probably going to be something along the lines of Suffering into complexity, and so we've got this.

Sonja Blignaut : 22:03

I don't really know, it's an acronym, it's not a framework or a model. But what we're trying to do, brian, is I got really frustrated with complexity, the wisdom from complexity Only really being available to a select few people, especially in large organizations. You know, it tended to be people in senior levels or just people who are already interested, and much of the content that's out there is also very conceptual, very theoretical, and so we're trying to create something that must democratize us in a certain way, and part of it is finding simpler ways to communicate. So one of the things that we talk about is to be fit for complexity, and by fit I mean not fit in the physical fitness sense, but fit in the sense of being adapted to a particular context. You know, like an animal would be to a niche. You need to be cool, you need to practice being cool, and cool is an acronym for courage, openness, observing which is very much in your wheelhouse and lightness, you know, and so courage.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 23:15

Open is observe lightness, yeah.

Sonja Blignaut : 23:18

And so courage kind of speaks for itself. But you know, I think sometimes it's quite counterintuitive. What is courageous in complexity? Sometimes for leaders it could just be some as simple as saying I don't know. Yeah, openness, openness to diversity We've had lots of conversations about cognitive diversity, etc Openness to doing things in a different way. Openness to let go of old knowledge, of old certainties, such as being open to explore.

Sonja Blignaut : 23:47

Observing is interesting. So it's got two aspects which I think links very strongly to your work. One is situational awareness, like observing the context, and the other is an internal awareness of your reaction to that context, because you want to be able to respond, not react, you know. So that's what observe is. And then also this ability to zoom in and zoom out, you know, kind of deep focus versus taking a balcony view, if you want to call it that. And then lightness is an interesting one, because lightness is not taking yourself too seriously, but then also reconnecting with what makes us human Humor, imagination, curiosity, playfulness. We use the language of play. We say we play with numbers, we play with strategies. We don't really play, we just say you know. So those are the. I don't know if there's skills necessarily. You know, they're almost like stances. There are ways that you show up in the world. There are practices that I believe makes us more fit for complexity. So I think I'll probably touch on that and then I'll see where it goes All right.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 25:02

Speaking of fitness, I think it was yesterday we were in a conversation about we're out of shape when it comes to engaging in conferences. You know we haven't been out and about over the last several years really engaging with three or four days, and just one day just took a lot out of me. You know, with a lot of great conversations, a lot of processing going on, my brain was tired and I want to know if that's happening to you as well.

Sonja Blignaut : 25:29

No, definitely, definitely, and I think it's happening on multiple levels. You know, I think I shared this with you as well. I think there's also some part of the brain we'd need to talk to Delia to find out which one that is still very much on alert, being amongst so many people Because, you know, coming out of the pandemic we, you know, I almost started seeing other people as disease vectors, you know. And so now it's there's almost like this hypervigilance to some extent, like you know I'm not used to. Did you just sneeze you?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 26:01

know, did you cough yeah?

Sonja Blignaut : 26:02

yeah, get away from me. How dare you cough and you don't have a mask or whatever thing you know? So I think there's that. And then also, it's almost like we're no longer used to being in person. You know it's, I'm used to being able to mute someone on the and turn your camera off and go switching yeah now you kind of need to stay in that conversation. You can't.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 26:24

Make an eye contact?

Sonja Blignaut : 26:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and also you know just and I think this was always the case with conferences it's just you know the kind of information overload and needing to process, but now I think there's these added levels, added layers of you know things that we no longer fit for. So, yeah, I also found myself really tired.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 26:43

So getting back in shape for going back to the office is a challenge. What are your thoughts on remote work? By the way, you know, do you? Is it here to stay? Should it stay? Should we do some type of hybrid work? What are your thoughts?

Sonja Blignaut : 26:59

It's complex, brian. It's complex and so it depends. That's why no, I really think it depends on context. I think there are some jobs that really don't Are not served by trying to do it remotely, but for me it's almost more about what's not working. Are these arrangements? You know, like everybody needs to be in the office two, three days a week. I think it breeds resentment, to be fair, because people very often what happens is they end up being in the office sitting on Zoom calls with other people who are also in the office and a few who aren't, and so I think that is not productive. But what is working and I guess this is a hybrid way of doing things is going back to the office or a location for a specific activity. So if a team needs to do a retrospective or whatever the case might be, that gets done in person, but work can be done.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 28:06

I like that.

Sonja Blignaut : 28:07

So I think it's more of a so it's a fit for function kind of a thing. But it is complex. The cynical side of me also thinks very often these companies calling everybody back. I think there's an aspect to it that's very much commercially driven by what happens to all those buildings If people aren't back in the office. So most of the people that I interact with they get so much more quality of life not needing to commute all of those things. But then, on the other hand, the dissolution of all of the boundaries that help them to keep their private and work life separate is also not healthy. So I feel like I'm waffling a bit.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 28:52

I don't really have a. I'm tracking.

Sonja Blignaut : 28:55

I don't have a single answer. But I don't think that we're going back to everybody in the office all the time, but I don't think that whatever that new way of working is has fully emerged yet. Okay.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 29:08

The stress of working at home is you go back to having multiple identities in a day and that boundary isn't there, right. So, throughout the day, your context, which is who you are You're a father, your husband, you're a coach for your kids, you're putting out talking to somebody who's working around the house. It's constantly changing and it's very taxing.

Sonja Blignaut : 29:30

So I don't think that's a healthy way to operate.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 29:33

I do like the idea of having a boundary to go into it and focus on work right, whatever that boundary may be. How are that created? And that boundaries are important because they help us get into some type of flow. And I think flow is kind of something you're really looking to as well. Is that true? You're looking into some type of flow or flow thinking.

Sonja Blignaut : 29:52

Yes, very much so. But before we go there, I just what I found really useful and what's really interesting from a setting, a boundary perspective, is that all of ritual? Because you know, in a way our commute was a ritual.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 30:05

It was, you know it's putting your clothes to go to the toilet yeah, and buying your favorite coffee somewhere yeah. Now you're putting your clothes to go to work right.

Sonja Blignaut : 30:13

Well, too much information.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 30:14

Brian, I hear some people though.

Sonja Blignaut : 30:18

But yeah, so we've lost that, and so I know of some people, and I've tried it myself to almost reintroduce different kinds of rituals, you know, to just help you make those transitions. But your flow, I've been really interested just in kind of from how many different sciences? Yeah, this thing of flow is becoming more salient, you know. So we both love the Bégin's work Construct the Law.

Sonja Blignaut : 30:50

And then there's a book, I think it's by Nicholson, that's working towards a process of sensual philosophy of biology. So it's called Everything Flows and it's really interesting because it essentially is this manifesto of sorts to shift away from a view of biology where organisms are viewed almost as things, to where they're viewed as processes. So one of the things that he says in the book is you know, from a biological perspective, everything that matters in a living system is a flow, is a process. So there's that, and then somebody's work that I've gotten really, really into in the last bit is a professor called Robert Shea CHIA. So he's also, you know, from a process philosopher, I think, and he wrote a paper and I'm not going to get it right, but the gist of the title is Managing Change by Letting it Happen.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 31:57

Okay.

Sonja Blignaut : 31:58

And so essentially what he's saying is that, again, everything is in flux, everything is flow, and organizations and organisms to that, for that extent, you know, are temporary stabilizations that almost like little eddies in a greater flow, and so change is always already happening. So instead of, you know, in an organizational context, to change the structures or to impose new structures or new processes, he says it's about removing structures to allow and this makes to be given freedom, the system will find new ways to structure itself, to optimize flow. So I, you know, and one of the places where this has led me that I'm, it's something I'm just really interested in is our use of language, because there a friend of mine, ray McNeil, he lives in Nova Scotia and he told me about a, an indigenous community I can never really pronounce their name I'm going to try the Mick Moore, I think and their language, their indigenous language, is something like 80% verb, and when you think about it I think Carl Weichs wrote about this as well you know, our use of nouns deanimates our world, because if I am able to describe, you know this my phone is lying next to me. If I can say, there's my phone, this is a cell phone, I'm no longer curious about that object. You know, it's kind of just that's what it is, I've named it, and we do this to ourselves, we do this to the natural environment. You know, I find it very interesting that something as dynamic as complexity is described with the noun. And it is just by the very nature it's never static. And so I think if we can develop a new language that's more, that uses more process words, more nouns, more, you know, I think one of the another friend of mine in Australia spoke about the how the Aboriginal people named places, and it was always named in context, you know.

Sonja Blignaut : 34:13

So it would be something along the lines of you know the river that flows from a certain mountain and we just name it Brian's River. So we strip context out and then we make it static. And if it's a river that's described in context and you're in relationship with it, I think you're much more motivated to protect it. If it's just Brian's River, you know, we can exploit it. It's something that we fascinating, yeah. So I'm very interested in just how our language and going back to Boyd now is infoming our orientation. Oh yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 34:53

The connection to the world. The environment is critical and as soon as we have these inanimate objects everywhere, it goes back to losing meaning. Right, we're kind of numb and I think that's. Is that where? How can I expect to be a numb?

Sonja Blignaut : 35:08

I think so, yeah, what does it mean about how we see ourselves? Because we, we, we, almost. If you think of things like ego states and our identities, it's almost like we see ourselves as nouns as well. You know, this is Sonja, I'm Ponch, yeah, and but the punch you were five, five minutes ago is not the same because of this conversation. But we almost de-animate ourselves by thinking of ourselves as objects, and if you then start going into organizations where we have human resources, then you know it's so. How do we, how do we shift from thinking?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 35:46

And we're doing agile too. There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sonja Blignaut : 35:51

So how do we? How do we kind of tap into that notion of everything is always in flux, we're always part of a process, we are flowing through time and space and so just letting go of our need for stability and certainty and kind of just again getting back to that relaxing into the flow. So those are some of the things that I'm. I don't. I haven't fully, I don't think you can ever fully figure it out, but that's what I'm curious about at the moment.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 36:17

Yeah, Well, I tell you what this has been awesome. Just to let our guests know, we got to actually go put on some clothes.

Sonja Blignaut : 36:23

No, we do have clothes on but go get dressed up for a dinner tonight Properly dressed up. Yeah, black tie and everything.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 36:30

Yeah, I gotta go find a black tie, so I appreciate your time. I know another conversation, I believe, on Monday. We have no idea what we're going to talk about then, but we'll definitely have you back on the show. This has been awesome and this actually kind of worked out. We got the nice.

Sonja Blignaut : 36:44

Yeah, and we even had some friends. We had some friends. They were friends. They didn't know who we were. I forgot.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 36:50

Sorry, sorry, I gotta go and give them some money now. No, appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun and anything you want our listeners to know, anything you want to share with them about what you're doing, how you get in contact with you, anything like that.

Sonja Blignaut : 37:05

Yeah, they can get in. Well, I'm on LinkedIn, as you know, and then website. I've got two, but I guess the most prominent one now is wwwcomplexityfitcom, and we've just created a WhatsApp bot that delivers very accessible complexity content Basically anybody in an organization. We're trying to meet these busy people where they are, so if anybody's interested to know more about that, they can get in touch.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera: 37:41

Great, awesome. Well, I appreciate your time and we'll talk more again on Monday.

Sonja Blignaut : 37:45

Yeah, thanks for the invite. Thank, you.