No Way Out

PsyWar with Dr. Robert W. Malone

• Mark McGrath and Brian "Ponch" Rivera • Season 2 • Episode 24

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It's time to favor Respectful Truth Over Bias-Driven Coherence. 

In what might be our most important conversation yet, we sit down with Dr. Robert Malone—renowned expert in virology, vaccines, and now, fifth-generation warfare. In this episode, Dr. Malone shares insights to the critical topics covered in his and his wife’s upcoming book, PsyWar: Enforcing the New World Order.

Listeners will get an exclusive first look into Dr. Malone's thoughts on:

  • The evolution of warfare, focusing on fifth-generation warfare, and how it’s affecting global psychological and information landscapes.
  • The manipulation of public perception through psychological warfare tactics during recent global events, including COVID-19.
  • Insights into mass formation psychosis and how it's shaping the collective behavior of societies worldwide.
  • A breakdown of the connection between technology and mind control, revealing how information is weaponized to influence your thoughts, beliefs, and actions.
  • Behind-the-scenes stories about his own experiences with public attacks and media manipulation.
  • A candid discussion on the consequences of centralized power and control, especially in information and technology sectors.

Whether you’re a fan of in-depth political analysis, interested in current global warfare dynamics, or just curious about the relationship between media and public perception, this episode is packed with deep insights and thought-provoking discussions.

Tune in to this eye-opening conversation and walk away with a clearer understanding of the world you live in today!

Don’t forget to subscribe and stay updated on future episodes of No Way Out.

Dr. Robert Malone on Substack
Dr. Malone on X @RWMaloneMD

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Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch:

Acta Non Verba – with Marcus Aurelius Anderson
Eddy Network Podcast Ep 56 – with Ed Brenegar
The School of War Ep 84 – with Aaron MacLean
Spatial Web AI Podcast – with Denise Holt
...

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Hey, Dr Malone, so thankful that we were able to sit down with you today and have a conversation about your new book, which isn't out yet. Can you give us a date on when that will be?

Dr. Robert Malone:

released. So according to Amazon, they start shipping on October 8th.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Okay, and will it be on? It'll be on Kindle and you have a hard copy and you have a hard copy For sure on Kindle.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's hardback. You can also get it from Skyhorse Publishing if you're one of those that are philosophically opposed to Amazon Gotcha, there are a few, and so you can get it direct from Skyhorse, and I've also recorded the audiobook and that should be ready for upload later today.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

And the title of your book I have right in front of me. It's called Cywar Enforcing the New World Order. Why this fascinated me when, over the years I've been following you, and I'd say in about the last three years, you start talking about fifth generation warfare, psychological warfare, information warfare, cognitive warfare, and I'm thinking to myself, why? Why is this doctor, who could be controversial at some points, right At some point from time to time it's writing about psychological warfare. My guess it has to do something with what happened to you and your family over the last four or five years, precisely.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Okay, yeah, so we all have our defense mechanisms and mine is intellectualization, which I'm told is not the most adaptive defense mechanism, but it's mine and it's kind of built into who I am. I'd never experienced, in the prior I don't know half dozen pandemic or related events that I have been at the forefront of, I realized that this was something very different and what I was experiencing was so foreign to my prior experience that I was forced to rethink a lot of fundamentals and try to start processing and making sense out of what I was seeing, not just what I was experiencing myself but what I was also seeing with my peers and that led me down a series of we overuse term that led me down a series of we you know we overuse term rabbit holes, uh, to try to comprehend. And you may recall that on the rogan podcast I spoke about mass formation or mass formation psychosis, the matthias decimus theory. That's derived from hana arndt's work in the 20th century about uh totalitarianism and the origins of totalitarianism and the psychology of totalitarianism and that certainly helped me and many others.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I think one of the reasons why I talked about it so much was a lot of people found it kind of therapeutic. It really relieved them of a lot of their internal tension and stress, particularly over divisions between them and close family members, during the COVID crisis. So I've been kind of tracking issues relating to psychology totalitarianism and trying to comprehend, make sense out of what I was seeing and experiencing during the COVID crisis, which was unlike anything I'd experienced in prior outbreaks, and along those lines, reached back to some of the stuff that I'd learned as an undergraduate in political science, graduate in political science, such as the kind of formative work on group psychology dynamics that's referred to as let me, I'm blanking right now the I can picture the cover right now a groupthink.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Victims of groupthink.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And the other core thread is this scientific work, the structure of scientific revolutions and those kind of capture, my frame of reference as I've come into this. So I've been very aware that there was a strong psychological component to this. And then, in noodling about, I encountered a I think it's 2010 text on fifth generation warfare text on fifth generation warfare, and, just like when I first encountered Matthias Desmet's work, it just had the ring of truth that this was something fundamental that was related, directly related to what I was seeing and experiencing, and so I started diving into it, and this is before Michael Flynn's books came out, and so I was just basically going off of the early literature in fifth generation warfare and in all of my European travels. Among them, I was asked to give a lecture in Stockholm and I chose I just out of the blue. I decided, okay, let's take a leap and I'm going to talk about fifth generation warfare to this audience of about a thousand people in Stockholm.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Video that related to the crowd stalking and bad jacketing techniques that were being used and applied to me with the language of controlled opposition and that kind of logic, and also, in trying to learn more about fifth generation warfare, I ran into the recruitment videos from the Fort Bragg PsyOps unit, and particularly that first one, which is so stunning, where they talk about that warfare is changing and they name themselves as the PsyWar soldiers. This is the Ghost in the Machine video that's so striking. They've come out with another one, but it's not nearly as impactful, and I used those two videos, plus what I'd abstracted from the literature early literature on fifth generation warfare, to give about a 30 or 40 minute lecture which left the crowd stunned.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Right. So I have to ask you this when you came across the idea or concept of fifth-generation warfare, I'm sure that triggered you to look at what is first, second, third, fourth, Absolutely Okay, yeah, so just to kind of reiterate that that first-generation warfare would be prior Sticks and stones.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Sticks and stones, right, right, yeah, lining up and throwing things at each other, and and then second generation. If I remember correctly and, by the way, we did a webinar on this right, I'd say two months, three months, after the lockdowns, uh-huh, you know, when all the toilet paper was gone, everything was gone, uh-huh. We did a webinar on this and we looked at second generation warfare, which would be, you know, civil War, precisely.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Mechanized, mechanized Onset of mechanized warfare, extending through World War. I really Right.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

And then World War I, trench warfare, attrition warfare, and I think that's happening a little, and the key characteristic there that I like to emphasize is the leadership structure behind these different generations.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So second gen and you know first gen is kind of random, relatively leaderless. There may be a leader there, but it's kind of groups attacking other groups in an informal way. Then second gen absolutely has a clear chain of command and it's often very much top down and then we move as you're. So go ahead and talk about no.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So third generation warfare kind of emerges out of World War II. We get Blitzkrieg.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Precisely, and I talk about Rommel as kind of embodying third-gen warfare, where here you have a tank commander who is allowed to have operational latitude and delegates operational latitude down to his tank units and, as a consequence, just runs roughshod over the Allies.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Right. We had Norman Oler on recently who talked about the methamphetamine used by the German Well yes, that accelerated a lot of this, and that's brand new thinking to what we've learned in joint professional military education. We didn't know there was a drug connection to this. Oh really, that fueled it. Yeah, and maybe you knew that before, but we talked about it Maybe.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I'm just aware of it because it's starting to come out in the literature.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It is.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's, along those lines, fascinating. So I went to school at Northwestern for my MD and apparently back in the 60s and 70s the drug manufacturers would actually give, would put meth pills in the mailboxes for the medical students.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Really, yeah, okay, it was that common, yeah, so we have another episode on that with Norman talking about what he discovered from his research. He was recently on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about this with him as well, but that kind of changes how that happened with Blitzkrieg. It was how do you keep the soldier almost in a state of flow for a longer period of time? How can you keep them awake? How do you keep them good? Yeah, so that's pretty fascinating. And then you know, we talk about John Boyd quite a bit in the podcast, and that's really why we have the podcast. And John Boyd looked at Blitzkrieg. He looked at all these things, really made sense of third generation warfare and the Marine Corps picked up on that in their MCDP-1, which is called war fighting, and that's medieval warfare. And then we get into fourth generation warfare, which to me is that shock and awe that we had in 1990, 1991. So we get into the first Gulf War and then we start start moving into more guerrillas.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, but I would push back. Fourth-gen warfare is even more decentralized, right yeah, in terms of command structure, and it's very much been a function of the insurgency efforts, al-qaeda, et cetera. I make the point that I don't think that the US military has prevailed in any single fourth-gen warfare conflict.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So we've studied quaint counterinsurgency for years and we've failed at it Exactly. Even in Afghanistan. I wouldn't say we failed at that.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I would say with the withdrawal we could pretty much put a stake in it and call it a failure.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

But when it comes, to the tactics and things like that, we're pretty darn good. But overall you're right, I don't think we've won a fourth-gen war, vietnam.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Vietnam, vietnam. My dad was an electrical engineer from Stanford that went into aviation and his first job was with Hiller Aircraft and he was told at the time this is late 50s that there was going to be a war in Southeast Asia and the purpose of the war in large part was to pioneer and pilot rotary wing aircraft battle plans. I buy that, yeah, it's always stuck with me because you know, once you grapple with that, you realize that a lot of the war efforts that we're engaged in as a superpower have these overlying ulterior motives. And now, as I watch Ukraine play out and I hear about the piloting of drone warfare and the implementation of artificial intelligence and now the integration of a fully enabled AI onboard AI drone warfare where humans are out of the loop in the kill decision, when I heard about that I was like, oh okay, now I get it. That's what that conflict is about.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So we've heard this term out of the Pentagon, and I can't remember if it was Chuck Spinney who initially brought it up, but it's a military, industrial congressional complex, right, so you got to add that congressional in there too.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Fair enough. And that same business model because that's what it is applies in the military industrial biodefense complex and now it applies in the new censorship industrial complex. It's a very successful business model, as Eisenhower warned us about, and it's a gift that keeps on giving if you're a military contractor.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So now here we are, and I believe Fifth Generation Warfare has always been there. I agree.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Okay, sun Tzu is full of fifth generation warfare tips and tricks. Absolutely, except for the difference is the technology, the information management technological base that now exists, compared to what has existed historically. A lot of the core, you know, humans don't change A lot of the core strategy remains the same Right, but the tools and technologies now available to 5G not cell towers Right, 5gw Is so powerful. I say again and again and again, the objective here is to control everything that you encounter in terms of information, everything that you think, everything that you feel, everything that you believe is actively being manipulated. And when I lecture on this, I talk about a surrealistic landscape that, once you step into this, you know the famous quote the only way to win at fifth generation warfare is not to play as soon as you step into this battlefield and you are stepping into a cywar battlefield as soon as you engage in social media, whether or not, you acknowledge it.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So it is a full on battleground and it's only getting more so. Right now, and as soon as you step into that, you are subject to a huge array of technologies and manipulation. That makes it so that, if you really think it through and process what's going on here, it's hard not to conclude that it becomes increasingly difficult to separate what is you and what is your soul, what are your thoughts, from what has been injected into you, manipulated into you. And if you're honest about it, you have to recognize that a lot of the things, the biases that you carry, the things that you believe, the things that you feel, are a product of the manipulations that you've been subjected to. Right, right.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So fifth generation warfare is a battle for your mind. The mind is the battlefield. One thing we talk about is machines don't fight wars, people do, and they use their minds. It's always coming down to the mind. John Boyd is famous for saying people, ideas and things in that order People, people, people matter the most, uh. So here we are with uh. I'm sure you're familiar with uh Marshall McLuhan's work. The medium is the message. We just had his grandson on the podcast talking about this as well, and that's you know, there's that connection to that. You know that iPhone, that iPhone is important to me because I don't have to remember my phone, any phone numbers. Now, right, it's an extension of me now, it's part of me. So that medium is out there.

Dr. Robert Malone:

But you're showing your age by saying that About phone numbers yeah because for the younger cohorts, it's an extension of their mind.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, for the younger cohorts it's an extension of their mind. It is assumed a lot of the functions that in our age cohort, we took for granted in our education, things like memorization, building this lexicon and library of knowledge that we carry with us, that we use to make associative relationships. When we encounter new information, we link it back to these old things that we have and these young people. That's not being built in. It's not part of the education. Everything is at a distance. They rely on this interface device that is just incredibly powerful in terms of a fifth generation warfare tool.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So there's a few ideas you brought up in the last few minutes that I want to kind of have a back and forth on, and that's when we talk about the OODA loop observe, orient, decide, act. It's orientation is the most important aspect of the OODA loop, it's the swear point, it's the focal point. Okay, Orientation has basically three components, or variables if you will genetics, culture and previous experience. Then you get this process that there's new information coming into it that updates that and then goes through a process of synthesis and analysis. So I want to kind of build a model with you, if possible, and you brought up groupthink. We talked about genetics briefly, but can you kind of explain the psychology of human nature, the human factor, and I'll kind of lead you into this. We know that we reconstruct our memories. Right, we reconstruct the past.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And furthermore we don't directly perceive reality. Right.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It's a controlled hallucination, top-down, inside-out. We've learned more about that, right? Okay, so this world that we're in right now, our brain, isn't in direct contact with anything that's up around us, right, it's our senses, our sensory organs that are sending that new information to that brain to process. Brain to process.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And those senses have been honed and refined, talking about genetics, around what is adaptive for a human being. As a consequence, we're filtering the incoming signal. There we go. We're only detecting a subset of available information, and in some people that's even more restricted than in others. It varies, I think.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It's already built into us I think it's called a reticular activating system that blocks information, prevents information from coming in. What we're learning from neuroscience is that we get into this prediction error process, this Bayesian inference or inference process, where we predict what's happening next. So this goes back to your point that we are under attack. The people that know this are attacking you the Facebooks, the Googles. You know these people know how you're designed.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Virtually all social media is fundamentally weapons. Yeah, yeah, twitter was designed as a weapon. It was deployed in Arab Spring as a weapon. Facebook was a weapon from the get-go. Virtually all of social Google was essentially a CIA project. All of social media is functionally a weapon, and that goes deep.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

But it's a function to take control of your mind or to influence the mind, right To manipulate.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Mind or however you want to call it mind soul, the whole package, however you want to call it mind soul, the whole package.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, so there's something that we talk about in intentional blindness that we only see what we expect to see, right?

Dr. Robert Malone:

What that means is or we can only see that which is consistent with our internal model. Right, we will reject data which is inconsistent with our internal model.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So that's orientation in the OODA loop is orientation determines how we sense, perceive, plan, act, adapt and learn in this environment. It's a generative model. It's a map that needs to be updated, yep. So that's the beauty of what John Boyd gave us there and I think it's very consistent with how you kind of where I think we can go with this, your topic of Cywar. What else is there? We're pattern matching beings, right?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yes, absolutely, pattern recognition is key.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I think pattern recognition is a key component of what constitutes what we call intelligence. Yeah Right, so when we take people through training or workshops, we show that they don't read every single letter when they're reading a passage on a page.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, great exercises.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

They're predicting what's in the middle. It's a pattern matching. So we have these. I don't know if you would call them behaviors or innate characteristics of being human. It's the way we perceive reality. We don't see everything that's in front of us. Weak signal detection, things like that. The people that know are using that against you, right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

That and the whole repertoire of psychology, skinner. You know the whole kit and caboodle is being weaponized against us.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, so now that's the orientation and that's under attack by the new information that's coming from the outside world. One thing that we track is control is outside, in, bottom up, and what we mean by that is the system drives the behaviors right. The environment we're in drives our behaviors or modifies our behaviors a little bit. The environment we're in drives our behaviors or modifies our behaviors a little bit. And maybe you can help me understand a little bit more about epigenetics. Are you tracking anything with epigenetics at all?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Not anything relating to this? Okay, so that kind of changes how we're designed down the road. So maybe it's connected to your research in mRNA. I don't know what that does to the genes, but it modifies them in some way, right? Yes and yes so complicated, okay, okay, but beyond this conversation, we can come back to that some other time. So there's fifth generation warfare and you also call it psychological warfare. Can you talk about the difference between the two?

Dr. Robert Malone:

built on tactics, and strategies and the logic of warfare. Right, psychological warfare is a term that I've coined. It's really a derivative of something that Alexander Kosimov coined, as he was describing in 2017 in an interview. This is a former Russian SVR and KGB agent. He was just and who is an expert in bioterrorism in particular. That was his core competence, and he described a series of of roles and strategies that were just, he considered to be fundamental spycraft, which one could observe being deployed by agencies, in other words, intelligence communities across the board, from not just the West, but in a kind of universal, and so he described this series of steps that basically involves the weaponization of information, often around infectious disease, in order to elicit some planned outcome, and he uses that very ambiguously, intentionally, because the planned outcomes are quite broad. Intentionally, because the planned outcomes are quite broad. The tech can be the approach. Strategy and tactics can be applied to achieve a number of different strategic objectives, from just pure economic and political disruption of a nation state through to really the adjacency to marketing, where you're manipulating populations and, by extension, politicians, to perform certain tasks, take certain positions, buy materials to advance objectives relating to control, crowd behavior, financial, economic objectives, not only just involving disruption. We've seen this. So this interview that blew my mind when I first read it, because it was from 2017, 2017 and Cosimoff was reacting to the latest, then just concluded bird flu uh, uh, deployment right, let's say uh, um, a strategic deployment uh of bird flu uh in an information, uh birorism context in his terms.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And he went through a series of tactical steps with describing roles and responsibilities. That started with injecting a narrative into the body politic, usually through less prominent media sources, for instance Science Magazine or Scientific American, op-eds or statements made by influential scientists, et cetera, in the context of infectious disease. And then or it could be influential climate scientists if we're talking about the thesis of anthropomorphic climate change. But some experts inject a narrative. The narrative begins to build, it gets amplified in corporate media, then you get the kind of wrap-up articles that take stuff that was boiling up from more obscure journals and then capture that, codify it, distribute it in a much larger sense. He talks about this as snowballing. And then he talks about the roles and responsibilities of the intelligence community in fomenting this process and how this then starts to gain momentum impact on the population, starts to impact on politics and political decisions and eventually leads to the realization of the initial strategic objectives and then, in the last phase, he talks about that.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's really important that once one has basically trained the population on fear of this item, this infectious disease or whatever the fear object is and almost all of these involve existential fear, the fear of death, right, which is one of the most powerful motivators. One of the most powerful sources of fear for human beings is the fear of death. We all fear death and it's incredibly powerful. It goes straight back into our subconscious when one deploys this kind of strategy, which I call psychological bioterrorism, because really calling it information bioterrorism is kind of limits it. It's really manipulating the mind.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And so his point is that, as one of these operations wraps up, it's really important to keep the topic alive. You don't want to close it out. You don't want to say we've defeated AIDS or we've defeated bird flu, or we've defeated monkeypox, or we have a final solution. Whatever. You want to keep it alive in the population so that you can then reactivate it when you need it for another objective, and those objectives can be to change the narrative on current media. For instance, we see this all the time right now over the COVID crisis and all of the other ancillary events. We see it with the media all the time.

Dr. Robert Malone:

A case could be made that we're seeing the deployment of these types of strategies and tactics in the context of attempting to shift the uh um, the narrative away from key events such as these two assassination attempts. You can see this being done in real time in the current political campaign Right. So it's a much broader concept than just the weaponization of fear of infectious disease for political objectives. But that's big enough and as far as I'm concerned, people who use this strategy of deploying fear of infectious disease against populations should be shunned. They should not be allowed to be part of any responsible national or international dialogue. And yet it is done constantly by the World Health Organization, the United Nations, the World Economic Forum, the United States government, other foreign governments. This has become normalized, this strategy and tactics of deploying this process of.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So it's the weaponization of complex adaptive systems thinking, or what we'll call. It's the weaponization of the OODA loop. And let me try this what I understand about complex adaptive systems is you set the conditions and you look for things to merge and you amplify those things that favor.

Dr. Robert Malone:

That are useful.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Useful to you and you dampen those things that are useful to you and you dampen those things that are not useful to you. Well put Right. And that's exactly what the OODA loop is. It's kind of built off the complex adaptive systems thinking as well. I don't think a lot of people understand this. They can talk about complex adaptive systems, they can stand in a workshop and talk about it, but they can't see how it's being applied out in the industry or out in the world. And that's from my experience.

Dr. Robert Malone:

By the way, I concur that these kinds of concepts are easier to assimilate academically and much harder to assimilate functionally and recognize their practical implications. The use of this approach to affect an objective, I think, can be an example that people have kind of overlooked. Coming from the COVID crisis, it is seen with the perplexed response that's occurring in the European Union right now and the European Council over the impromptu decisions that were made by Ursula von Leiden concerning these massive purchases of genetic vaccines. Okay, what goes on here? And this is the interface between this technology and marketing. And I believe that at the front edge of pharmaceutical marketing is an awareness that this kind of technology, fifth gen warfare and the associated psychological warfare strategies and tactics, which are absolutely in adjacency to classical marketing you know, propaganda is in adjacency to classical marketing. It's just a question of is it black propaganda or is it gray propaganda? It's that fine line.

Dr. Robert Malone:

But a working hypothesis is that the pharmaceutical manufacturers facilitated, perhaps in cooperation with the intelligence community, facilitated the weaponization of fear, certainly throughout the West, if not globally, in a harmonized strategy that I was able to see because I was traveling.

Dr. Robert Malone:

The same words, the purchasing of influencers, the same strategies and tactics were being used all across the Western world, certainly in a harmonized, simultaneous fashion, and the consequence was that this fear and kind of numbness was promoted in general populations, this fear of death of this agent, which was promoted as having 3.4% case fatality rate, in other words, 3.4 out of every 100 people that got infected would die. That was the thesis. That turns out to be totally a false narrative, an artifact of modeling, and the actual rate is a fraction of a fraction of a percent, particularly in pediatric populations. But this fear was promoted, and then you had a situation where populations were demanding of their politicians a response, and so the politicians were faced with a situation. This very much relates to complex systems. I think that it's not necessary that the politicians were in on the deal, which is what a lot of my peers assert that they had nefarious intent and they were actively conspiring with pharma. So they had a plan.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

They didn't sit down in a room and plan this Well that's.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So. The problem with all this is that event 201 did happen and there was a plan Okay, okay, circa November of 2019, that involved Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the CIA, the World Economic Forum, the United Nations, the World Health Organization, et cetera. Okay, so that, et cetera. Okay, so that happened. Okay, that's a fact.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

That's what happened right?

Dr. Robert Malone:

You can look up the video and watch it yourself.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

But it's possible. A lot of things are just emerging from-.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I think that there is a significant component of emergent phenomena in complex systems that has gone on here, and I think that some of it was intentionally crafted and directed, as you say, as it became visible that there was ways. You know the famous line don't let a good crisis go to waste. So, functionally, what happened was that world leaders found themselves in a position where they were facing torches and pitchforks in the general populace. You know you have to do something. And, in a bit of a blind panic, they made irrational decisions about what to do in terms of the acquisition of these products, the deployment, the forced deployment of these products, because they were believing quote the science we talk in the book about scientism. But they were given to believe that they were listening to the experts, not recognizing that what they were really encountering was rampant I almost said rabid groupthink.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Right, okay, that was dominating this, but they found themselves in a position where they had no tenable option other than to buy into these pharmaceutical industry products, and they made irrational decisions. They made huge buys that far exceeded the needs of the population that they were overseeing, and I think the only way there's another one of these problems when you encounter this kind of observation is how do you differentiate between nefarious intent and incompetence, right, or nefarious intent and competence, and this kind of phenomena of being scared and herded into a series of decisions? Right, and there's no debating that the outcome of the mismanagement of the COVID crisis was the largest upwards transfer of wealth in modern history. I mean, that's another fact. We can put a pin in that one. And was that?

Dr. Robert Malone:

There are many that assert Ernst Wolff is a leader in this and Ed Dowd, also a former BlackRock investment fund manager that lives on Maui, is a friend. A number of people assert that this was intentionally planned and deployed, and it's hard to argue against that. When you encounter things like the Klaus Schwab-Thierry book the Great Reset, which was first announced as a strategy by the current King of England, it's hard to argue against there having been some scheming and nefarious intent component of this.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Back to the complex adaptive systems view with the emergent properties, amplification of, and if I do this, I get this in return, and there's a couple of examples that I'll bring up here. One is I saw this in the military, and that is you remember all the piracy problems we had many years ago?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yes.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Somalia, yeah right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And it's coming back.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Has it changed? It's coming problem because I want to buy more ships, right, or I want to buy drones, so that's kind of how that emerges, right Coming back from. I was in Hungary in March of 2020, right before the lockdowns I think it was right before lockdowns Came back did a webinar with the government on safety and complex adaptive systems, and on there was Yunir Bar-Yam who was talking about what's coming with the flu, the pandemic, right. And I immediately called my dad right afterwards and I was like you got to quit your job right now You're done right, because here I am listening to an expert telling me how bad it's going to be right. And then one thing about this is you know, I come from a culture in fighter aviation where we question a lot. You know, after we make our first action, we're like okay, get out of chaos for a moment, find a complex.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Orient.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Orient right. Find out where you are right, get back into a complicated domain, start asking questions, and what I started to realize is that curiosity is not in everybody Absolutely. Folks that have deep expertise they have PhDs are really smart in a field would not challenge anything. In fact Tend to be highly siloed.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, yeah, is there a?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

reason for that? Why are people extremely educated folks who are for that? Why are people extremely educated folks who are experts in the field? Again my experience they push back on information that comes from another place.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So let me address that. So this is a fundamental concept in this whole space the mass formation of the psychology of totalitarianism. It's been observed. Aldous Huxley has an interview from the early 60s in which he talks at length about the same phenomena. All right, and it runs all the way through psychology.

Dr. Robert Malone:

About 20% to 30% of the general population is easily hypnotized. They're easily manipulated, yeah, and huxley argues this is a good thing, that without this we couldn't govern. Okay, you, you, he argues, I'm I'm not of this opinion, but he argues that a population would be ungovernable if you didn't have a substantial fraction that would go along with whatever the leaders tell them to do. Then you have 20 to 30 percent at the other end of the bell curve. Perhaps you and I and fighter pilots in general represent and these are the folks. You can't hypnotize them for love or money, it just doesn't happen. There's something innate in terms of the skepticism of their mind, their questioning. They aren't suggestible in the same way. Then there's the 60% that I refer to as the persuadable middle that's in between those two, that kind of go with. Whichever the way the wind blows, whatever the dominant narrative is of the time, they're likely to buy into that and go along with that. And Matthias Desmond makes the point in his work on the psychology of totalitarianism that the job of those of us who are the dissidents in the bottom we call the bottom 20 to 30%, the skeptics that aren't so readily suggested if we want to resist the growth and expansion of this mass formation process and people get confused about that term, mass formation, because it's basically a translation from the Dutch, okay, and so it doesn't really make sense in English, except that when he talks about mass, you could think of it as group, okay, okay, so he's not talking about lead or physical matter, okay, he's talking about a group of humans, a population of humans, a mass of humans that becomes hypnotized and enthralled with the dominant narrative and will follow a what you know.

Dr. Robert Malone:

There's a whole set of preconditions that lead to this kind of dissociative psychological state that people fall into. Um, and he talks about bullshit jobs, uh, about, uh, the uh fragmentation of society. There's a series of conditions that lead people to become highly susceptible to this kind of suggestion and they become disaggregated from their community and their others. This is obviously what happens with a lot of social media tools and particularly with gaming. It's very effective in this. So you end up with people that aren't really connected to each other and yet they have this fundamental need to be connected. And so what happens is they will transfer their social anxiety, because they don't have this connectivity that we need as humans, to some third party leader that comes in and basically asserts that they have the magic dust, the formula you know Anthony Fauci is an example. They have the special knowledge that will relieve the anxiety and stress and fear of the population, and when that happens, the individuals will transfer their allegiance onto this individual.

Dr. Robert Malone:

But what's strange about this in the context of totalitarianism, as opposed to a lot of the other authoritarian systems, is that in a totalitarian system, they're attached to an individual, but if that individual falls for some reason, they'll readily swap to another one. Okay, so you can readily substitute in another leader, but that's kind of what's driving this. And so when you talk about what makes this subset I don't want to call it us, but this subset of individuals that are highly resistant to these promoted narratives and strategies that can be used to manipulate whole populations it's that they have this innate skepticism and wariness associated with everything around them in their environment. But their peers are just very glad to have relief from the psychosocial stress that they're experiencing because they're disassociated, and so I think that's kind of the underpinning. And it's very odd that historically this kind of 20 to 30 and 60 and 20 to 30 at the top end persists. Through study after study after study, it seems to be something we're talking about epigenetics and genetics. It seems to be something innate in human psychology.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So this is kind of odd. During, you know, six months after the pandemic started or the lockdowns, people I hadn't talked to in years started connecting with me Right, and, you know, I started self-censoring.

Dr. Robert Malone:

A lot of my friends went off.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

You know, they lost their Twitter accounts, they lost their YouTube accounts, they lost business. It cost them money for asking questions.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's furiating. I destroyed my consulting business that I built up over two decades.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, All you're doing is challenging assumptions and asking questions, and I think there's nothing wrong with that.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Which is what, as a scientist, I was rigorously trained to do. It was drilled into my head and that's what we're trained to do in aviation?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

We're always looking for a. How do you hedge? How do you get yourself out of a? You know what's your backup plan, how to adapt, to change. All these things you have to keep challenging. And plus we have something where we blend egos right. There is no rank in the cockpit.

Dr. Robert Malone:

That's an amazing thing. We learned how to do that, which, by the way, is a great way to combat groupthink.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, right, because now we can find those weak signals in a group, find those few who see the world a little bit different and start asking questions like what's this? I didn't see that, right. Right, we have the world of debriefing. We have folks study us and go, hey, and I hate to say us, but they look at fighter aviation and commercial aviation as well and ask questions like how did you guys create this thing called psychological safety? Well, we don't know. We've been doing it for years. The experts in complex adaptive systems, the Toyota production system, psychological safety are the same people that were suppressing or actively condoning the people sharing out information. You're like these are kind of they're hypocrites, right, in my view during that time. So it was very frustrating to oh, can I give an?

Dr. Robert Malone:

anecdote I have to yeah, okay. So to that end, back to not to make it all about Matthias Desmet, but when I went on Rogan and uttered these three words mass formation, psychosis the Google searches went exponential. Yeah, google started manipulating the search results in real time manually. This was captured through screenshots, okay, and the press went rabid and, among other things, they interviewed a social scientist, phd in the UK who said this mass formation, psychosis or mass formation, this is not in the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual, this is not mainstream psychology, this is just quackism, etc. Etc. Well, then it comes out that this guy is actually an expert in nudge theory and he's been advising the British government, so a total conflict of interest, and he's basically weaponizing these concepts that Matthias called mass formation to provide service to MI6 and 10 Downing Street. I mean, you're right, the hypocrisy can be maddening at times maddening at times.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, you know, I listened to your Mises Institute talk, which is fantastic. Thank you, and there's a nice connection back to economics and a lot of things you're talking about. You brought up something that kind of shocked me. It was a juror ticket. Yeah, explain that, I want to. Just why did you bring that up?

Dr. Robert Malone:

So the I think it's the House Judiciary Committee that's involved in the investigations having to do with the weaponization of government did a deep dive into events up to the COVID crisis in the vaccine deployment. So through the initial phases of the COVID crisis up to the vaccine deployment, and they wouldn't go further. I've spent enough time on the Hill. There is significant hesitancy to ask questions about the vaccines on the Hill, with a couple of exceptions Ron Johnson in the Senate, being an Rand Paul, is a little gun shy on this one and but the Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Weaponization, as I recall within the House, did a deep dive into the propaganda and censorship issue and in that context they are the ones that revealed the documentation because they had subpoena power of the role of the GARM agreement, a structure in weaponizing advertising against Twitter to harm the economic prospects after Musk purchased it Gotcha, which is what triggered Musk to file a lawsuit against Garm. Up until that point I don't know he's a Pollyanna, but he apparently wasn't aware that he was being diddled by Garm. But in this context they revealed that the government, in their public-private partnerships with these kind of mercenary third party, often academic-based organizations that have been set up often, which had significant components of former intelligence community membership partnership relationships set up particularly with CISA, the branch of Homeland Security. That kind of coordinates all the censorship, propaganda, industrial complex activities under the current administration, the weaponization of mis, dis and malinformation, the declaration of that constituting domestic terrorism and the action items around that. And one of the things this group did was they set up, they used the Jura software to just like any IT company would, to track complaints or issues that always crop up with software and customer support. So they employed the JuraTicket technology and system in order to document information about themes, memes, individuals etc. And to document how these were being characterized, what their sins were, were that should trigger a adverse reaction in terms of censorship or the psychological warfare of crowd stalking etc. That was deployed stocking operation using the foundation for CDC through the public good projects.

Dr. Robert Malone:

That then funded shots heard around the world which solicited physicians and scientists to go online and attack people in a coordinated fashion. They would put out email blasts saying attack this person. They posted this and I got hit. I'm one of the ones among many that got hit by that structure.

Dr. Robert Malone:

But in this right at the end of what the committee released in terms of documentation, my name came up and my name specifically was cited in screenshots of juror tickets with the sins that I was an anti-vaxxer. People of you know the irony here of a vaccine development specialist that spent his entire career developing vaccines being an anti-vaxxer. And my other sin was I was a registered Democrat and did not vote for Donald Trump, but was brought into that world because nobody else would talk to me and I couldn't get the messaging out about what was going on and what I was observing and what the risks were associated with this, except through conservative media, and so that's why I ended up going on Bannon and Glenn Beck and eventually Alex Jones even, and all these other identified individuals that have been categorized as illegitimate in some way using this label of conservative.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So that's how the juror it in some way using this label of conservative. So that's how. The Jira ticket. So I bring that up because one component of what John Boyd looked at in the OODA loop was the Toyota production system in Kanban. In agile software development they use Jira, they use other platforms that make work visible. It's a signaling card system, right, yeah. And tracking, yeah, tracking. So it's the weaponization of the Toyota production system applied towards this and it's just weaponization of the Toyota production system applied towards this, and it's just fascinating that you brought that up during that. Something else you've just brought up is, with that, we'll call it a weaponization.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Right now, you have a couple of things you can do with it. You can look at it and say I need to update my orientation as a person, or if I don't like what you're saying, I can act in a way that suppresses that or attacks you. That way, I don't have to update anything, right? That's another component of John Boyd's Observe Orient, decide Act loop. Is you update your orientation to adapt to the world? Or you, if you're functional, yeah. Or you take an action that allows you, the person who's taking the action, not to update orientation and attack somebody who has different information or new information that you just don't.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So this gets into the structure of scientific revolutions and paradigm shifts, right? So I first made this argument in a British club. The British club, uh, is kind of the hangout for the conservative party. Okay, I was there to support andrew bridgen, who's been an outspoken critic of the uk government. Empty, uh, um, uh, parliament, uh, but uh. So I flew out, uh and and gave this talk to these guys, most of whom, with the exception of Nigel Farage, were, uh, in deep denial. They were, they were in the community of uh, better to deny the data and deny the observation than to grapple with the consequences of their own malfeasance, bad judgment et cetera, and so this is basically what we're talking about is psychological defense mechanisms, some of the most primitive ones.

Dr. Robert Malone:

right Denialism is one of the most primitive adaptive responses.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

What does the law of unattended consequences fall on that as a leader, like if I make a decision and it destroys the world or, you know, it kills people is that I just walk away from that and go? I'm sorry, but the law of unattended consequences, so I make a bad decision or I make a decision that causes something. How does that fit into that?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Or a blowback, is the one I focus on. So this has to do with the platonic concept of let's see if I can get the terms right. It's basically that a leader has the right to act in ways that might cause harm but acts out of a sense of an endorsement of the noble lie, so that it's acceptable for a leader to lie or engage in malfeasance if it seems to be aligned with the greater good, and, of course, the greater good is always fungible. It's a context-dependent thing and it shifts all the time, and so we're in an environment right now where there's been clear malfeasance and bad judgment and mismanagement, but uh, no one is going to be held accountable. Uh, with, you know, a couple of exceptions on the fringe, uh, but uh, certainly not Tony Fauci, uh, and um, not uh, the leadership group under Donald Trump, let alone the leadership group under Joe Biden. There will be no consequences, because these people were acting in what they assert to be good faith and, to the extent that they promulgated knowingly lies, which they did, I mean, there was a direct agreement between the US intelligence community and the intelligence community that any information that could lead to vaccine hesitancy would be suppressed, whether it was true or not, and so we observe this as lies those of us that are aware of what the actual data shows, those of us that are aware of what the actual data shows, but for the vast majority of population, they're quite glad to just accept this storyline coming from their anointed leaders.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And this, really it all does trace back to Plato's Republic, which is fundamentally a totalitarian text. It is wrapped around kind of an authoritarian model of leaders. You know that that I speak about this in the book. The thesis was that people had different metal, and when they said metal, they're not talking about what we think is m-e-t-t-l-e the word derives from m-e-t-a-l. Okay and and the thesis was that there are those who have gold functionally in their souls, those who have silver, those who have lead, and they define our class structure. That was the platonic model, and so those that had gold as a fundamental component of their being, of their soul or whatever, were the appropriate anointed leaders and they were allowed to do what they needed to do in order to lead the general population, and that included mismanagement, malfeasance, lying, et cetera. That was all acceptable and rationalized, based on this leadership model that in many ways still persists in the modern administrative state. Right?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I'm curious is being a good leader, or leadership a form of fifth generation warfare?

Dr. Robert Malone:

A case can be made. People argue that I am an expert fifth gen warfare, uh, um, warrior, because of the language that I use and the tones that I use, subconsciously. Okay, uh, this this. The assertion that that somebody is practicing fifth gen warfare, um, on a subject or a population, is almost impossible to refute Because, remember, one of the fundamental precepts of fifth gen warfare is that it is functionally leaderless. You should not be able to identify the source of the pressure.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I think is a good way to put it the propaganda, the storyline, the pitch, the manipulation that, if you're aware of who it is that's deploying, that they've failed in the context of fifth generation warfare strategy.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So this leads into this situation where and it's insidious you not only are not able to discern what is truth in a fifth-gen warfare battlefield, you're not even able to discern who is friend and who is foe.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Anybody can be a blend, they can be hybrid, they can be acting seemingly as a friend and as an ally, but surreptitiously acting as a foe and supporting whatever the agenda is of the opposition.

Dr. Robert Malone:

This gives the driver behind the accusation that somebody has controlled opposition. Driver behind the accusation that somebody has controlled opposition, which is a term that was injected in the 60s by the FBI, largely as a way to counter some of the protest movements, particularly the Indian protest movements, and it's incredibly effective because it plays off of people's paranoia. So that's one of the things about this whole space is that when you get into it you can't be sure of anything, and one of the consequences is remember we talked about the preconditions for mass formation and the rise of totalitarianism is the disassociation from social relationships. But in a fifth gen warfare battlefield, you can never be sure who's your friend and who's your foe, and so it intrinsically isolates you, it intrinsically fragments the population and sets up the characteristics that lead to a populace that's willing to accept a totalitarian leader. The, the battlefield of fifth gen warfare is insidious, yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So fifth gen warfare is a strategic game of interaction and isolation. You've used the word isolation and interaction in this. I like to think of it as a game of flow it's. It is a who controls information, who has information. I hadn't thought about it in that context before, where you could be working with somebody that you might identify as a good actor, but they may not be working in your best interest. So it's kind of like the HBO series Game of Thrones. It's a game of flow.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Good point.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, I like that. Yeah, Wow, this has been amazing. So your book's coming out on October 8th, I believe.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, that's the scheduled date and since I have all these author copies, that suggests that they're going to hit their mark.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

All right. No, this is great. And who published it again?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Skyhorse. Okay, so they also published our first book. That's Tony Lyons and Simon and Schreister actually do the press, but it's not their label. Yeah, so Skyhorse is a Manhattan-based operation that has a number of different labels, but Skyhorse is one of them and has been willing, historically, to take on much more controversial topics than any of the mainstream publishers.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, yeah, I expect it to do well. Given the context where we are in this election cycle, it's kind of amazing.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's like it's getting validated in real time. I can't believe that Every day we're limited.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

We get the data from the Fed every week or we get manipulated data from the Fed or the government about the jobs.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Right. The jobs reports was fascinating.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

But most people don't notice that. They're like oh yeah, whatever, it doesn't affect them.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It does affect you.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It really does Right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Well, and it affects the financial community, it affects the business community, it affects the people. So this has been another one of the epiphanies for me in this space is the realization. You know, I constantly get this who's the puppet master's? Question. There's about 20 different ways you can phrase it, but it all comes back to the same thing who's the guy at the top that's manipulating all this? You know? And there's all these standard answers Bilderberg's, the WEF, klaus Schwab, the Rothschilds, it just goes on. You know the Bank of International Settlements. So you know, pick your conspiracy theory, but undeniably the bond markets and the financial markets control the world.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Want to see an example of that? Look at the history of Giorgio Maloney who, remember, was pitched as the next Mussolini far right fascist by the American press and the French press and most of the press associated with the Trusted News Initiative all promoted that she was a far right, crazy land fascist. And in fact the truth is she's a center-right crazy land fascist. And in fact the truth is she's a center-right populist and a very pragmatic one at that. Her goal is to stay in the prime minister position in Italy. I've been traveling to Italy a lot lately, which parts, by the way Mostly Rome, padua, venice, more southern, not the northern yeah, I lived in Naples for several years.

Dr. Robert Malone:

But this all kind of got catalyzed because we did a rally or we actually spoke in the Senate, the Italian Senate, in Rome, nice, in late 2020, early 2021. And I went to the Vatican and so that's kind of set that whole and remember, the Italians were the ones that really bore the brunt of COVID, particularly in Northern Italy early on, in any case. So Giorgia Maloney is an example. She gets elected against all odds and she comes in as a fire-breathing dragon and within about three weeks she's a belled cat, and the reason is because the financial community, the bond market, brussels, basically gave her the news that if she was going to try to move forward on these various financial reform objectives that she was proposing, she would be out, and so, as a consequence, ever since then she's been constrained to talking about social justice issues and women's rights and family and these kinds of soft things that don't actually have an impact on finance. Another example is Liz Trust in the UK, where she started to want to kind of kick over the apple cart in terms of the financial relationships in the bond market and they pulled the rug right out from under her and put Rishi Sunak in.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Money controls the world and money is increasingly consolidated in this small number of uh, whatever you want to call it investment funds. Passive investment funds this is like putting lipstick on the pig. Um, you know, uh, larry Fink is anything other than passive, right, but, but they, but they control the world, right, and people don't get it. Yeah, and when you look back, if you want to make sense out of things like what happened during COVID or any of these psychological bioterror events, you need to look at the follow the money and look at who wins and who loses. Yeah, and that's how you will know who was really behind this kind of stuff.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And again and again and again, it's the bond markets. And that's why I talk when I know that you interact with investors a lot and the business community. When I talk with my political colleagues that are on the right, center right, that are involved in the Trump administration and campaign and CPAC, et cetera there's a number of them that live very close to here. By the way, it's kind of their bug out, get out of town, place for Alexandria. But what I tell them is you know, they ask me what can I do? And I say you can try to influence the movers and shakers in the bond market, because they are the ones that are making all the decisions, and if they come to the conclusion that the strategies being espoused by the UN and Klaus Schwab are counterproductive, as is happening right now with DEI.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Larry.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Fink apparently is jettisoning dei okay as from being one of the main proponents of it. Okay and dei is absolutely all about stakeholder capitalism, which is, claude schwab right. That's what this has all been driving towards and, once again, these theories that they've come up untested and tried to implement on the world have failed.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And it happens again and again. And it's coming up, by the way, with this agenda for the future that's supposed to get voted on at the UN next week as a pact. Okay, just like Agenda 2030 wasn't pushed as a treaty, but it has the force of an international treaty. This is the 17 different goals and objectives.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

That was during the Obama administration.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Obama signed it right at the end of his term and no Senate oversight, because that is so yesterday. It's all done by executive order now, and that commits us to the force of law in terms of international law, and they're about to do it with this Pact for the Future, which is an attempt to accelerate Agenda 2030. This is, you know, we have to have universal global education, universal access to the Internet, universal standard of living, minimum wage, you know, or basic income. We're all equal. Yeah, absolutely Okay.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Us and the people that live in the Dominican Republic or the Central African Republic, or whatever name your Latin American or Eastern European nation state that is, uh, socialist or on the fringe. We're all in this together. We all have to be equal and, by the way, it's a fundamental human right to live wherever you want, yeah, which is why we have open borders, okay, so people, people miss all this stuff. It's right there in these documents from the United Nations and they assert that they have the best plans. It's actually their words we have the best plans. These plans are untested, just like DEI.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

This goes back to complex adaptive systems. You can't plan it right, you can't be centralized plan, so they're all which is why I advocate the only path forward.

Dr. Robert Malone:

the only viable path forward that I can foresee and I talk about this at length in the book is decentralization Radical decentralization, based on the concept that decisions should be made at the lowest common competent authority. This is a principle of subsidiarity.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

This is what we coach all the time. It's the same.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Because it's fundamentally right.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I think in nature it's done that way too.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, yeah, okay, and you can come up with whatever advanced theory you want about the nature of man and economics and human interactions, and you know the logic of Malthusianism or Neo-Malthusianism, the logic of utilitarianism, the logic of socialism, the logic of Marxism, or now social Marxism, no longer economic Marxism, but all of these are just theories that, when tested, they fail again and again, whereas decentralized, local problem solving. This gets to that other key point that I keep trying to make. That derives from the structure of scientific revolutions and the importance of paradigm shifts. Right right Is, when you impose a top-down structure onto a problem set, you know, speaking objectively, whatever the problem set is but it could be human society and politics is a problem set when you impose a top-down structure, what you do is you completely constrain the ability of the system to adapt and evolve, and the consequence of that is that the pressures and this is what I spoke to when I was out in the UK at this conservative club. I told those guys look, if you won't acknowledge what's going on here, you're setting yourself up for major social unrest because there's no other solution.

Dr. Robert Malone:

If you constrain the ability of the population to adapt and evolve, eventually you're going to have it blow up, whereas in the normal situation, where you're having these changing conditions because that's what you focus on is change right when you're having changing conditions, you tend to get a situation in which you will adapt a solution set up until you reach some sort of functional boundary. That's a consequence of the technology or other constraints that you're encountering, and as you do that, there becomes a greater and greater gap between the optimal solution, the unmet need, and the functional solution that you're available to access. So you're locked. And it becomes much more egregious when you have a top-down kind of totalitarian structure imposed because nobody can adapt to it, nobody can adapt to the changing conditions. And when you impose psychological warfare and censorship and propaganda, the people that normally would be the innovators in that environment get shut down, as you yourself observe.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So you're speaking our language here. Control is outside, in bottom up. We know that Control is outside in bottom up. Leadership and appreciation is top down. It's leading like a gardener. You don't manage that system. You don't micromanage, you can't.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Which is second and third generation warfare strategy. Really, second gen right Right, whereas fifth gen it's totally leaderless, yeah. And fourth is pretty close decentralized.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So, speaking of leaders and money, I want to throw a counterfactual at you. Where would we be right now had Elon Musk not bought Twitter? In context of psychological warfare, context of psychological warfare.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So that, what does Elon actually represent? And I think that that's a fluid question. Okay, I think both Elon and at the margin, starting to be Zuckerberg are evolving. Zuckerberg's recent admission of guilt limited hangout admission of guilt about the censorship and propaganda stuff that he's helped deploy through Facebook suggests that he's either recognizing that it's inevitable and he's got to cover his ass or he's starting to have a little bit of an epiphany.

Dr. Robert Malone:

In the case of Elon, he initially bought this product and he puts on the retrospective scope. He says $40 billion wasn't the price to buy Twitter. It was the price to preserve democracy I think is one of his lines right and free speech. That's not why he bought Twitter. He bought Twitter because of its installed user base. That's one of the reasons why he was so diligent about how many false accounts there were, how many bots there were, because he couldn't really assess what the true installed user base was of Twitter, because that's what he was buying. Why was he buying it?

Dr. Robert Malone:

The tell is in the renaming X. He's been ever since PayPal Remember, the original name for PayPal was X. He's been trying to develop a I call it one ring rules them all. He's been trying to develop a universal platform that will have Amazon-like capabilities and PayPal-like capabilities, financial capabilities. It'll become your one-stop go-to. And that was absolutely the business model that he had when he purchased this thing. And then events, I think, took a course and I think he started to get more and more radicalized as he experienced the deployment of all these things on him. Suddenly, there was an inexplicable downgrading of share value market cap for his major assets Tesla.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

A lot of shorts in the market. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Okay, he started to get hammered. He lost like a third of his net worth. Now he bounced back after that, but there was clearly a strategy deployed on him. He has been almost as much as Donald Trump. He has been subjected to fifth gen warfare technology or psychological warfare, and I think that it's radicalized him and I think that who he is now. When you watch the tweets that are coming out, they're pretty strong wording and the endorsement of Donald Trump. Who would have thought that was going to be coming? Just the same as who would have expected Nicole Shanahan and Bobby Kennedy to be endorsing Donald Trump? Tulsi Gabbard, yeah, but the other ones no. So, uh, where would we have been if he had not bought it? I think that where we are now with his purchase is partially a kind of unintended consequence of the weaponization that was deployed against him. I think who he is now is not who he was when he bought it.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

And how he sees the world now is not who he was when he bought it and how he sees the world.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Everything is racing, I mean the news cycle, the compression that's going on, and Twitter X is playing a key role in it. I mean, if you, I was, circumstances just resulted in a situation. I was in the Mediterranean when the first assassination attempt happened and so I was kind of ahead of the domestic US news cycle and I got on this as soon as it happened, started grabbing stuff off of Twitter and putting it out in my sub stack. The sub stacks went nuclear in terms of their viewership and everything else, because I just got ahead of the curve. But mainstream media was like days behind what I was able to put out in the first 24 hours because I was just pulling stuff off of Twitter. Yeah, yeah. So where would we have been if he hadn't purchased it?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

What would we be having this conversation today? Let me ask you that I don't know, okay.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Would we have the same audience reach? No, probably not. No, but I'm still throttled. On Twitter, somebody broke into the code. Someone posted a link to the codes that are used to characterize various accounts and I was able to. I had a buddy, um, who was a coder. He actually was the one that pointed out the C plus plus error in the crowd strike fiasco Uh. So he he dove into those codes and pulled out, um, the information about my account. I'm listed as a spam account right now, yeah, okay, and as a consequence, I'm listed as a spam account Right now. Yeah, and as a consequence, I'm censored. I'm shadow banned, wow, and so it's been over a year now.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I was flatlined at 1.1 million followers, and that's after a period of exponential growth. Flatlined at 1.1 million. Maybe it was because I just wasn't putting out good content, but I get all this feedback. Well, I'm following you, but I never see your posts. So that's another. We haven't even talked about information, the kind of business model that drives Silicon Valley. That drives Silicon Valley? Yeah, but recently, for some reason, that's rheostat has been turned back a little bit. Okay, and I'm starting to grow. Now I hit 1.2 million and then the week after that, I picked up another 10,000 followers.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

They're not bots, though, right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

You think they're humans. Well, how does one know? I don't know? I know when I'm getting hit by a bot storm and gets deployed by the 77th Brigade in the UK. I mean, there's all kinds of signs that you can find to figure out who they are. And I've just got.

Dr. Robert Malone:

One of the problems with the X algorithm is that if you answer somebody in the stream automatically goes to the top, so everybody sees it. So one of their strategies is to provoke you, so that we haven't even talked about all the nuances of the battlefield of social media and psychological warfare. So one of the strategies that are used by these bots and trolls is they intentionally provoke you, and there's various versions of this. Sea lioning is one. We've got a whole glossary in the back of the book that talks about a lot of this stuff. But they intentionally provoke you and so you get to the point for those that haven't become battle-seasoned.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Eventually you're just like I'm going to say something and as soon as you do that, that comment pair, that antagonism post in your response, goes to the top of the stack, and so then everybody sees it. So then everybody is reading. Whatever the ugly thing was that so provoked you that you had to respond to it other than to block viewing on that post and block access of that account to your account. There is no other solution, okay. And so you just go through and you just hide and block, hide and block, hide and block, and eventually you know I've done this probably thousands of times Eventually you get down to the point where the troll noise and the bot noise is pretty low and you get to where you can sense them. They make kind of standardized nonsensical attack comments. Someone the other day posted oh Malone, he just reads off a teleprompter.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Well, that's obviously BS. I won't tell anybody that there's one right here.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, right, we're guiding all our dialogue here. So you just have no other choice but to block these people. And they have these characteristics they're low complexity accounts, they generally aren't certified. So they aren't certified, so they don't have the blue check or the red check, depending on your platform, and they say vile things and they're intentionally being provocative and they're intentionally being disruptive. And now we know, because of other things that have been disclosed by the government under FOIA and otherwise, a lot of these are coordinated. They're coordinated by, among other things, government agencies, uh, and and so you know, don't feel sorry when you block, uh, the trolls and the bots, uh, just get rid of them. They, they pollute your space. Okay, and I've heard a lot of people that are kind of seasoned call them warriors in this space that independently come to the same conclusions. You just have no other option because of the nature of the algorithm.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

All right, hey, I want to kind of wrap up some things with you. I want to throw it in your lap here Any question you want about what we're doing with the ooda loop or anything like that, or any connections that uh you may have uh questions about, or anything in general.

Dr. Robert Malone:

so we've kind of touched on ooda loop a little bit, but it's been fairly superficial and, as we said in the pre-recording, uh, when we were discussing, I first encountered this in some of the early academic literature that described fifth generation warfare Goes back to like 2010,. The stuff that I was accessing and it talked about the importance of the OODA loop in fifth gen warfare and this kind of naively admitting that that what it seemed to be referring to was that in this fifth-gen warfare battle space, this surrealistic terrain that we enter when we start interacting in social media, you have to make decisions on the fly and in in the context of a, an information space that is highly, highly manipulated, which is what a modern media and social media is. Everything is manipulated right, often, uh, you know, to a variety of different objectives, so everything is manipulated. Nothing is really true and straight Right, except maybe some.

Dr. Robert Malone:

You know, the Joe Rogan podcast seems to pretty much that's his brand, right Is? He just calls it like he sees it and lets the chips fall where they may, and so he has this huge following. But in terms of Uda strategy, my sense is that one of the ways that it applies is that you have to trust your intuition. I sometimes refer to it as your soul to it as your soul.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's that inner voice that is yours alone Right has to be your guiding star. Yeah, and you have, in this very fast-paced interaction that is this modern. You talk about waves or flow of information and narratives that are constantly flowing by you in a faster and faster rate. The only option you have, because you don't have time to really do the deep dive, for the most part, is to um touch base with yourself what feels real in an environment where you can never tell um truth right where where truth has has fallen victim to this logic of of subjective reality. That reality is not a tangible thing.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

it's whatever you feel it to be, and I think the only way you can do that is to be present, to be calm. That interoceptive capability that's maybe connected to your soul, that fingertip feel you get the hair on the back of your neck standing up. Those things are telling you something. Is that what you're getting at?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, are telling you something, and is that what you're getting at? Yeah, that when I read about OODA loop in the context of fifth gen warfare, I inferred that what was trying to be conveyed was that in this battle space, you have no option other than to use all your senses, try to perceive whatever truth you can, extract it out of that environment and then make your functional decision about how to respond to that threat or that information or those inputs to do so based on to call it intuition is really to oversimplify it.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, it's not outsourcing your thinking. You need to be able to think for yourself. That's that's the uh. A reason we created the podcast is to help people understand how to think, rather than what to think. And, um, what you did today is isn't telling people what they need to think. It's here's. Here's what's happening, it's accounting, it's a perspective. Is it right? I don't know, it's right, but it's if it's suppressed? That's that's not what we want. We want the free flow of information. We have a constitution, we have a democracy, we have a Republic. Everything you want to me is you want information to flow freely and I haven't read your book yet, and thank you for the copy. But misinformation and disinformation and malinformation they're all words, mean things, so can you just kind of explain what each one of them means?

Dr. Robert Malone:

So I used to lecture in a very confident way about the meaning of these words and then I started for the book. I had to do some due diligence on the history of these words and their utilization in early UK dialogue. A lot of this stuff, in the logic and the language, come out of discussions with UK Ministry of Defense and intelligence community in the UK and the academics behind that that are helping drive it, and we cite some examples in the book that are online references. You can go and download the testimony given to the parliament, for example, from experts in this field. So the definitions have gotten a little bit more fuzzy, but I still fall back on the definitions that were used by the Department of Homeland Security and Mayorkas, secretary Mayorkas in his determination that misdisk and malinformation constituted domestic terrorism, determination that misdis and malinformation constituted domestic terrorism. So based on those definitions, which are somewhat oversimplified compared to where the whole field is of research in this. But misinformation is it's easiest to define. In the context of the COVID crisis, misinformation was any information which differed from the official narrative of that point in time coming from your national health service. So Canada may say something different, new Zealand may say something different, but what matters is, for instance, in our case, the CDC and the NIH. Okay, so our public health service gave us certain information and also the president did about Omicron or the effectiveness of vaccines or their adverse events, et cetera, and any information that was being shared which differed from that official narrative coming from your public health administration or the World Health Organization and often those two were not aligned Okay, so it becomes immediately ambiguous was defined as misinformation. Disinformation was information which was different from the approved narrative but was being shared for a political objective. Okay, so if I said, if I was saying that the vaccines were neither safe nor effective, were neither safe nor effective and that was the fault of Donald Trump and his leadership committee and therefore you should support Joe Biden, then that would be disinformation, because I would be using misinformation to advance a political objective. So, therefore, you should vote for Joe Biden, whatever the thing is. I'm just using really stark, clear-cut examples.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Malinformation is the one that I find most fascinating. Malinformation is defined as anything that is true or false. In other words, it can be aligned with known truth, the true narrative as made available by our government, or it can be false. So it can be true or false, but it causes the hearer, the listener, to distrust the government. Okay, so if I say the CDC has manipulated VAERS data, okay, that's an objective truth. Okay, you can verify that truth. Okay, but that will cause you to become distrustful of the CDC. That will cause you to become distrustful of the CDC. Therefore, you will be sharing mal-information, information which causes you to distrust the government. But it's a fact, doesn't matter. That's the point.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

That's what's fascinating about it. So if I share out the latest and greatest in employment data and I know two weeks- from now it's going to be revised right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Great example.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So that makes me distrust the government when they lie to me. Yeah. Yeah, okay, right, great, great example so that makes me distrust the government when they lie to me.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, yeah okay, um, and and therefore you're sharing disinformation, as the term is defined, unbelievable or malinformation, I'm sorry, malinformation, uh, so clearly these are propaganda terms yeah they.

Dr. Robert Malone:

They didn't really exist prior to, uh, um, 2018, when there was this kind of groundswell, of push. And remember, a lot of this was kicked off by former President Obama in an address that he gave to the Hoover Institute, where he said that it was going to be necessary to censor in order to preserve democracy Unbelievable, okay, so you can look it up. That was what really kicked a lot of this off and the explosive growth, the Stanford Internet Observatory, the whole propaganda, censorship, industrial complex, the role of academics and, of course, that involves Cambridge. Back in the UK, a lot of this has British roots.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So you shouldn't trust any British people? Is that what you're saying? That's kind of how I feel right now.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I can appreciate that. I have many friends in the UK. I do too, but until we have a change in administration, I'm not going to drop into Heathrow.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, I just saw that they're going to drop into Heathrow. Yeah, yeah, I just saw that they they're going to charge you $13 to show up there. I don't know if you saw this recently, but no, I'm, I'm referring to them.

Dr. Robert Malone:

arresting people for misdissimilar information in social media posts, yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I mean, after this podcast I may have to travel out there. I may not come back. So I may you know I'm serious.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, no, I'm serious too. I travel through Heathrow all the time and I won't travel to Brazil anymore. I'm really iffy about going to Canada and I'm really resigned to I can't travel through Heathrow. Wow, you know, I can go down to Lisbon, yeah, and then go up. I'm a little wary about Germany with what they've done. Did you know that in Germany it's considered to be a sign of being a far-right fascist if you fly the German national flag.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

No, I used to live in Germany. I spent nine years there. Yeah, no, Germany is not the same. Germany is not the same as it was. Okay.

Dr. Robert Malone:

The Alliance for Deutschland AFD party, which was the leading conservative alternative to the current leading party. When I was in the Make Europe Great Again conference in Romania speaking, there were people there that were from the AFD and they would not identify themselves as AFD to the press upon interview because they were afraid that they would be arrested upon returning to Germany. They made the party illegal, they made fundraising for the party illegal and the party was like second in the elections Germany has. They can't perceive the irony of what they're doing. It's you know you want to talk about mass formation. This is a scary time.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, yeah, the Holocaust deniers. I've been to Dachau, I've been to Auschwitz. The preservation of history is important. The context is important.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, when I'm going with. This is the moment we start erasing our history, like here in America. We start erasing history and we're taking away context and with that we lose the ability to learn, and that's happening here in the US right now.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Did you know that the Wayback Machine is being edited?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yes, we have a relationship with them. Yeah, yeah, we do Okay.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So here's a fun one. When some would assert I think it was Maureen Dowd that wrote in New York Times that there was a coup and Harris was installed and Biden was removed from power. I'm not talking about the original assassination of Kennedy, I'm talking about the most recent one, and you'll recall that there was a narrative that was being promoted very actively, based on truth, that Harris had been identified publicly. As the borders are Yep Okay, were you aware that corporate media across the board has gone back and revised those articles?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

to take that out, yeah, so.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Bannon first said this to me three years ago as we were building. The book Lies, my Government, told Me, and the Better Future Coming, and he said books are the only thing that are going to survive. It's the only source of information that will be preserved in this environment.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, preservation of information is critical. So this is important when we talk about understanding the past. If you misremember the past, you cannot improve the future. Fundamentally Orwellian yeah, we want people's perspectives to understand what happened, to look back. Early on in this conversation we said reality is constructed inside.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it, right. So the art and science of debriefing says we need to look back from multiple perspectives, bless your heart and take an accounting of what happened, and accountability is the ability to recount what happened. You look back and you look at facts. Right, if these organizations are removing that history, right. But you and I remember something different. We're not wrong.

Dr. Robert Malone:

No, we're mad, yeah, yeah, no, we're we, by the very act. I mean, this is so deeply Orwellian. The mere fact that we are retaining that information and if we try to scrub it, we experience cognitive dissonance makes us a threat, and that threat will have to be neutralized.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I do remember and this is an accounting by me the CDC changed the definition of a vaccine. Yeah Right, as did the WHO. But you bring that up to folks and they're like they'll look at it like no, they didn't. I'm like, yeah, they did. Here's the document.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Yeah, no, it doesn't, yeah, it's so frustrating.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It's an accounting. My view was this and, by the way, history supports that view it's irrelevant. It's so frustrating.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So this shows the power of this technology.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Okay, and the power of the logic. So another section of the book talks about this new caste system. There's various. We're clearly in transition and the old ideas of upper, middle and lower class are obsolete, and the proletarian, the petit bourgeois and all this is no longer really useful in the 21st century. So one of the new constructs is the physicals, virtuals, the overlords, and I added, the machines, because of transhumanism. Right, we haven't even talked about the future and the future of robotics interfacing with AI, but so in this construct, the physicals are folks that actually do stuff with their hands. They're actually productive, they might, you know, at one end they're digging ditches, at the other end they're physicians, I mean people that are actually physically doing stuff, the HVAC guy, et cetera. Those are the physicals. Virtuals live in the world of finance, coding. All of these industries that we have decided post-Clinton is going to be the backbone of America. We don't need to actually produce stuff, america. We don't need to actually produce stuff anymore. We don't need to do stuff anymore. We can let the immigrants do that, right.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And this has become the world that the millennials and a lot of the young are now moving into, and they've all graduated to that from the world of Dungeons and Dragons and gaming and VR, and they live in a world in which reality is entirely subjective.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's no surprise that these issues of gender identity, fluid gender identity, et cetera, arise from these populations because, to their frame of reference, reality is entirely subjective, it's whatever you feel it to be okay, and so there is no objective reality. And so why shouldn't we erase the past? Why is the past even relevant? The truth is what you feel it to be. It's not some objective thing, and the likes of you and I, because of our generational bias, and probably because of our ethnic bias or God only knows what else, in the world of wokeism that we share in our privileged male status, we have the arrogance to believe that there is an objective truth. And the problem where this all breaks down is particularly in economics and your clientele, the businessman. If they bought into DEI and ESG, they've now learned a really hard lesson.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

We've seen that, yes, Even the military.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Oh the military has gone bonkers.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

So I'll be clear. I was a DE hire in 1996, if you want to call it that in today's terms I had the minimum requirements to get in the Navy. I did well. 27, 26 years later, going through the pandemic in the Pentagon wearing a mask, looking at other 05s and 06s like why are we wearing a mask? You know six feet apart from each other, and then at the end of the day we go across the street and we all have dinner without masks and all that you know. Like this is crazy. I mean, we knew that before all this. We went through extremism training right, which basically said if you have any, going back to your misinformation, disinformation and malinformation, if you look at the world any different than what you're told, you're an extremist, right? I'm like you just told me I can't be a maverick. Everything the military taught me, the Navy taught me.

Dr. Robert Malone:

There's a fighter pilot. Yeah, you're like you're telling me A Navy fighter pilot.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I can't challenge assumptions. Now Are you serious? And then the system drives behaviors. Basically, the people that are getting promoted, they understand the system quite well. They're not I'll use a term we use to be or to do right. They're part of the system. They're being something right Rather than doing something. You are a doer, you're doing something. You're not part of the system. Right, and I think that's what we need more of is people to do something, not-. I'm kind of with you, but I'm biased. Yeah, I am too. Well, anyway, hey, I really appreciate this conversation. So glad we got the opportunity to connect with you before you go on your world tour. Maybe I don't know what's coming up next.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Oh it's just, uh, this is uh, go down to aaps and then uh um, I think that's in austin, I'm not sure we leave thursday night and then, uh, immediately get on a plane to go to japan for a rally for the international crisis summit I think this is number seven that we've held, so we've been all over the world on that and then fly back from that and the next day so we land in Dulles and just take the car up to DC to an undisclosed location, and then we go to this. What is it? Unite, the West or the Republic?

Dr. Robert Malone:

or whatever rally that's going to be held down in the quad. So that's that schedule, and then we get to be home a little bit.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Okay, and the book launch October 8th. Anything planned for that?

Dr. Robert Malone:

Nothing specific. I've been doing podcasts now probing it for about a month and a half. The first was with Nicole Shanahan out in. Malibu, which was surprising, meeting her was not what I expected.

Dr. Robert Malone:

She's pretty sharp, yeah, and she's on a journey of discovery, yeah, and people often don't recognize her background. She was married to one of the founders of Google, had a autistic child. That kind of radicalized her and brought her into the children's health defense Bobby Kennedy world. But she's yoga, met hubby at Burning man yeah, northern california liberal yeah, uh, just, you know, straight on jd, hot, you know, high performing jd specializing in law relating to artificial intelligence. That's her thing, okay, and she's come all the way from that to, you know, interviewing me, russell Brand, all these people and really embarking on this amazing journey of discovery and awakening and trying to build a podcast. That isn't, you know, she's kind of trying to become Joe Rogan for younger women.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And I wish her luck. Yeah, that's great. I think she's amazing.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

What's amazing about these podcasts is it's a network. This medium is allowing us to have these conversations and the friends that have other podcasts that have other conversations. We all connect right, yeah, and not all the population.

Dr. Robert Malone:

It's a community. It is a community. It's exactly what I've been talking about. We need to build community. It's a network.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

It's a network that's going and getting the real message out there and things you can't do with mainstream media.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I argue in the book that the most disruptive communication technology in ages is the citizen journalist.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, and I'm a knuckle-dragger, I'm just like, hey, let's have a conversation about something.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And it's so much fun and it's the knuckle-draggers. We missed an opportunity. Earlier on, we were talking about why intellectuals and highly educated are so easily manipulated, and I'm convinced that a lot of it has to do with the nature of education. In order to become a highly certified or credentialed individual, like what I had to go through, so I went through 12 years of postgraduate education after my bachelor's degree. You know, on top of that and what that teaches you for instance, going through medical school what that teaches you is you assimilate the truth as it is provided to you from an authority figure. You don't question it and you regurgitate it. Okay, and your success depends on your ability to assimilate that given truth and incorporate it and act on it, just like what you were talking about. Your role in military, in modern US military is very much a function of what you're defined to be doing, not your ability to reason independently or question, and so I think that what happens with a lot of folks that have gone through what's really an indoctrination process is they have learned a skill set that makes them extremely vulnerable to this type of manipulation. Yeah, where authority figures tell them what they should think and do and they do it. People are constantly asking what happened to the medical profession. Well, it's kind of. This is how we've been teaching medical students for a long time, really, since the turn of the 20th century, and that's by intention, and that's by intention.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I wrote an essay the other day about what's going on in Germany with Volkswagen. I don't know if you're aware, but there is major economic turmoil happening in Germany right now and Volkswagen is looking like it's going to have to shut down some of its manufacturing plants and the unions are screaming murder and saying we're not going to let this happen, we're going to resist it, et cetera. The irony is, what's happened in Germany is that they kind of believe their own propaganda. They went all in on green energy, which is the most expensive form of energy. They cut out their nuclear power plants, they cut out coal, they cut out natural gas because of nordstream uh, in in russia, russia, russia, uh. And now they have an industry that's crippled, yeah, uh, because in volkswagen was already crippled because of diesel gate. Okay, um, we got in.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Volkswagen is the largest employer in Germany. You've got a industry that is on the ropes and the government and the governments throughout the West have said you have to build electric vehicles. Okay, and China, meanwhile, has lapped up all the lithium all over the world. They dominate battery manufacturing, lithium battery manufacturing, and they've leveraged that. Now they are the largest producer of EVs in the world. And just like Donald Trump said in the debate that there's a plant, he kind of whiffed it a little bit. He said there's an automobile manufacturing plant being built by China down in Mexico. What he forgot to mention was it's being built by the leading EV manufacturer of the world, which is Chinese, which is the same one that is now flooding Germany with its own EVs, which Volkswagen can't compete with, among other reasons because it's getting Chinese batteries at a cut rate because of the just predatory practices of the CCP. And so the German economy is being decimated, in large part because they believe their own propaganda.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, it was centralized planned. Not the decentralized approach to the market. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Robert Malone:

I think it's a classic example of what we've been talking about right now, and it's what is going to propagate throughout the entire system. As we're moving, we're all singing from the hymnal of one world government. Yeah, and I just can't see how that goes anywhere. Good for innovation.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Isn't it kind of odd? Everybody's talking about diversity and yet they want to make one world government.

Dr. Robert Malone:

So not only one world government, they want to have a single universal education system that is going to homogenize cultures all over the world, like that? Okay, and so we talk the talk of diversity, but what we're doing is implementing a strategy to harmonize globally culture, regulation, everything. Okay, and I assert that. What is behind this? Going back to the touchstone, it's all about the money, stupid, right. It's all about economics, that this is about minimizing friction, economic transaction friction if you're a big transnational, if you're larry fink with his portfolio of transnational corporations. The thing that you don't like just like Pfizer ran into this the thing you don't like is having to deal with a multiplicity of global, distributed, independent, regulatory importation, economic taxation, et cetera. Okay, it's chaos and it results in greatly increased expenses and transactional friction.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Okay, and you want to minimize friction? There's a fundamental principle of business, right? You minimize friction. So what are you going to do? Let's go to stakeholder capitalism, it's all inclusive and let's get harmonization across the world in terms of policies and regulations and education and access to the internet. What's not to like? Because, hey, somebody in an emerging economy is equivalent to somebody coming out of the tradition of german industrial manufacturing. You can just take pick somebody out of the tradition of German industrial manufacturing. You can just pick somebody out of Central Africa, drop them into Germany and they can start doing the same stuff that a advanced automobile technician working for the German industrial automobile complex can do, right, because it's all going to get standardized and run by AI and robots. So what's the difference? Because we have all of these useless eaters, the success population, and we're going to have to get rid of them anyhow, because we're all going to move to transhumanism and robotics. That's, that's where this is all coming from. I think, uh, and I think that's what's behind this, what is a fundamentally anti-human logic.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, which I think a way to summarize that is, instead of updating orientation to the external world, they're trying to push their orientation onto the rest of us, and the problem with that is the rest of us push back, you know.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Well or not. I mean, how much power do they have? We're about to find out.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

Yeah, yeah, I mean that's, I think, what's going to break in the future if we continue on this path.

Dr. Robert Malone:

And again going back to structure of scientific revolutions and paradigm shifts. If you don't allow adaptation and the fundamental of allowing innovation and adaptation is free speech, and the fundamental of allowing innovation and adaptation is free speech and if you're going to suppress that, you're going to suppress ideas, you're going to suppress dissent, you're going to result in a situation that gets more and more and more dysfunctional over time because of all the change that's happening and eventually it's going to blow.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera:

I think that's a great place to wrap this up. I appreciate your time.

Dr. Robert Malone:

Thanks for having me on. Thank you.

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