No Way Out
Welcome to the No Way Out podcast where we examine the variety of domains and disciplines behind John R. Boyd’s OODA sketch and why, today, more than ever, it is an imperative to understand Boyd’s axiomatic sketch of how organisms, individuals, teams, corporations, and governments comprehend, shape, and adapt in our VUCA world.
No Way Out
A Daughter’s Perspective: Unpacking John Boyd's Legacy with Mary Boyd
Curious about how the legendary military strategist John Boyd shaped the world of aviation and beyond? Join us for an engaging conversation with Mary Boyd, who offers a captivating glimpse into growing up with such an influential father. Through her unique perspective, we explore the untold stories of John Boyd's life, his foundational work on the OODA loop, and the challenges of preserving his legacy. Mary’s dedication to digitizing her father's work, ensuring his uncopyrighted ideas remain accessible, sheds light on the ongoing relevance of his strategies for generations to come.
Discover the fascinating network that John Boyd maintained, connecting with iconic figures like FedEx founder Fred Smith, Dick Cheney, and Admiral Stockdale. Mary shares insights into her father's charismatic personality and his ability to draw people in, revealing how his genuine interactions and thirst for knowledge defined his relationships both personally and professionally. We also touch on Boyd's love for certain films and his preference for non-fiction, providing a fuller picture of a man who was as passionate about cinema as he was about ethical integrity and honest discourse.
As we navigate through Mary’s cherished memories, we also take a closer look at the enduring impact of Boyd's theories on various sectors, drawing parallels to the complex cognitive demands of fighter aviation and the intricate nature of the OODA loop. Highlighting the significance of understanding personal biases, this episode encourages listeners to rethink Boyd’s concepts beyond their military origins. With anecdotes from Mary’s childhood and her reflections on her father's dedication to continuous learning, we celebrate the enduring legacy of John Boyd and the profound influence of his strategic mind.
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Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch:
Acta Non Verba – with Marcus Aurelius Anderson
Eddy Network Podcast Ep 56 – with Ed Brenegar
The School of War Ep 84 – with Aaron MacLean
Spatial Web AI Podcast – with Denise Holt
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Mary Boyd, I want to thank you for being here today. I want to thank you on behalf of our listeners for allowing us to do this show, and what I mean by that is we contacted you and said, hey, we'd like to do this, and you kind of gave us some guardrails to stay within, and hopefully we're staying true to that. I also want to thank you on behalf of the millions of people who have access to your father's work. A lot of that is because of your willingness to give that and donate that to the United States Marine Corps, the museum up there up in Quantico and Mark, do you want to say anything to Mary before we get airborne here?
Mark McGrath:Mary, thank you so much for taking the time. It's an honor and a privilege and we have so much to continue to learn from you, as I've been learning from your dad. When I first heard of him in 1994, a couple of years before he passed away as a young midshipman in Naval ROTC, we were taught about the Boyd cycle, and when I think of all the work that we're trying to do and the teaching that we're trying to do following following his example, it's really an honor to to have you on.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Thank you, thanks, mary. Uh, so, mary, there's so many directions we can go into. Uh, I think the direction of travel I'd like to get to is uh, where you were helping your father with uh the language in in uh many of his briefs and and, and I don't I don't want to go there directly. I want to rewind a little bit and kind of turn it over to you and have you talk to us and share your insight not your insights your experience with growing up in the Boyd family, so, wherever you want to start there.
Mary Boyd:Well, first of all I was the youngest child. All right, in some aspects I was more like my dad because I was more athletic like he was. You know, I was a swimmer and stuff. So in some aspects, yes, I was more like him. I've had people say I have a lot of his hand gestures and everything and I'm very similar to him. I would say, yes, I am, but I also have my mom in me and I'm also my own person.
Mary Boyd:As far as starting to work with my dad, I don't quite remember exactly but it was a long time ago. Do you remember the original compact computers that were considered portable? Yeah, there were these big monstrosities with this little screen, like about this big. That's when I started with my dad and I worked with him on that and that was back probably early 80s, I guess I don't know it's been so long and used the typewriter. I did all kinds of things with him.
Mary Boyd:Um, we did get volatile at times you know, I have a little bit of the boy temper, you know, but we usually would step back and regroup and we'd come back together um working and I worked with him basically pretty much until he got really sick and then it kind of got shelved at that point, but up until the time he got sick I was helping him. Yes, uh, the last step of stuff I did, which I think is the final green book, I did it on what they call a product called interleaf, which is a big publishing package, and at the time uh, kind of give you a little insight I was working for AT&T down in Washington DC and they had a beautiful setup. So on the weekends we'd go down to AT&T and I had permission go down to AT&T and we worked down there and work on his stuff and when he passed, all the tapes that I had, you know from it, from it, were turned over to Quantico.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's interesting. Hey, mark, do you remember coming across those tapes at all, and is there a way to read them anymore? I don't even know.
Mark McGrath:We'll have to go dig on that one.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, okay, but they're there. I don't remember seeing them.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, they're data tapes. I mean, if you think about it, they were like the cartridges, but they're data tapes. You know, I mean, if you think about it, they were like they're cartridges but they're data tapes.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah.
Mary Boyd:They weren't like reels, they were like data tapes.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, yeah, like the ones we had in the late in the 90s, early 90s, yeah, okay, and not all our listeners are, you know, they don't remember the hard drive or the floppies and all that. Exactly, we didn't always have these Gucci computers that had two terabytes of a hard drive on them. Mary, this brings up an interesting point about preservation preservation of your dad's work, right, you know, for anybody to access it, they need to go to Quantico. There's a few things online, not many and digital restoration, digital preservation, plus the work that your dad has in Quantico Curious, would you be interested in entertaining digitizing that so more people can have access, which includes your father's notes in the books and all that? Is that something we could?
Mary Boyd:do. I don't have an issue with it. One of the things I know people have always asked about my dad's work and why the copyrights and everything. And I always remember my dad saying to me and I've truly much held true to it he didn't want his stuff to be copyright in such a way that someone could buy the copyright and then they could remove the information from anybody being able to use it. He was totally opposed to that. So whenever people have asked me can I look at your dad's stuff, can we quote him and everything, and I'm like, yeah, just make sure you say it's him and you know you're getting, you know, approval from me, because it's not like I'm going to turn you down. You know I'm all for dad's stuff getting out and that was the idea.
Mary Boyd:He was really concerned that his stuff would get used by one person and it'd be pulled away from everybody and he wanted it really to be out there. Brian, as you know, we met that one day for coffee and I told you my dad was all over the place. I mean, he was, he was. You know, if you wanted to hear his briefing and it had to be the full 12 hours. He was there. I actually sent you a picture of him that I have from the Paramount I think it was Paramount Studios the Star Trek. He actually did that Paramount and I, you know I got that picture if you want me to show it on the webcam.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, we could do that, so that I think that picture is Star Trek.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, he's standing in the transporter on the stage.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:I'll have to look for that, but if I understand you correctly, paramount asked for a brief and he went out there and provided Okay.
Mary Boyd:Wow, he did publishing. He did you know the arts. I mean he did it all. I mean the idea is, you know whether you're in publishing or you're in the arts. You know you're trying to stay ahead of your competition, right, that's what it's all about. I mean I was really surprised. I mean I knew about a lot of it, but when dad died and people started asking me, I was really surprised at some of the people that came by and I was like, wow, I hadn't even thought of it in that way. Like, for example, the medical field really uses his stuff because they have what they call the golden hour, where you know a person can be saved and they apply his stuff in the medical side. I had never even thought about that.
Mark McGrath:Tell us more about this, mary. So Paramount Medical, give us, give us more. So you know, ponch and I are both veterans. Ponch is a Navy jet guy and I'm a Marine, and how I became very familiar with your father was through the Marine Corps. You know, ponch and I are both veterans. Ponch is a Navy jet guy and I'm a Marine, and how I became very familiar with your father was through the Marine Corps. But give us more of a painting, that picture of not military, where you've seen interest, learning, application of your dad's work.
Mary Boyd:Like I said when, after dad died and I did get some contacts, I mean I actually have somewhere in the house put away a box of all the stuff that I've received from people who published on that, including medical personnel, matter of fact, I think the medical personnel were out of Australia, I believe. I believe it was Australia. So you know, the police are using this stuff. I believe the firefighters are using his stuff. I had heard karate people were using his stuff. So obviously the medical and then, of course, entertainments publishing, you know, I mean it's all about getting out there first and getting the head start. I mean, you know type thing which you know. That's business, I mean. But you know I did tell you my dad also breathed, fred Smith, you know that's interesting too.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So FedEx, when I saw the scan thing.
Mary Boyd:I laughed because you were talking about the cargo thing. Yes, I laughed yeah.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, so, and I didn't know this when, mark, I'm not sure if you were familiar with this, but I did not know John Boyd briefed Fred. It was before or during the time he stood at FedEx, right.
Mark McGrath:Fred was a naval aviator. He was a Marine. He was a Marine.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we'll have to look into that a little bit more. But, mary, do you have any more insights on that briefing? And maybe that's potentially how FedEx dominated for a period of time?
Mary Boyd:You know, I don't want to sit there and say he just briefed Fred. I think they actually may have ended up being personal friends too out of it all. You know, when it comes to it, you know, I mean, I think he had a lot of contact with him. Well, they're aviators. You know, that's kind of a big world. It's a small world at the same time, like as you're saying yourself. Oh yeah, I think that all kind of played a part in it. You know so. But yeah, I knew he knew Fred Smith, matter of fact, we talked about it, also about my dad's phone book. You know you'd open it up. You'd be surprised at the names that are in there.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Can you, can you share some of those names? You showed them with me when we were having coffee and it was so.
Mary Boyd:The timeframe of this was around the Gulf war, yeah, so he had Dick Cheney's personal phone number just to let you know, and at the time Dick Cheney was who Secretary of Defense. Yeah, so a lot of the stuff that was done in the Gulf War was based on my dad's work.
Mark McGrath:Yes, when we were in the archives I found some of some of his phone numbers, and one was Admiral Stockdale, you know, who was ross perot's vice presidential candidate, but also a legend in, uh, in naval not only naval aviation, but really military leadership and stoic philosophy. Uh, that he was communicating with jim stockdale with his, with his not only his phone number, but like his home address yeah, I'm telling you my dad was everywhere You'd be.
Mary Boyd:I said when he died and people were contacting, I'm like what I was? I mean I knew some of it, but not in the form that you know afterwards. You know, I mean that kind of kept some of this stuff close to his heart. You know it was his stuff and I mean that makes sense. He's a personal, you know, his own person, you know. But I mean he really did have his hands everywhere.
Mary Boyd:I like to say I don't want to say hands in everybody's pies, but he was definitely poking those pies. Let's put it that way.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:I want to talk about his, his connection with, with other people, and I believe you and I talked about this at coffee. So when he walks into a room and and I think you were describing that to me um, what kind of what attracted people to him, or did they, or were they?
Mary Boyd:well, I you know my own personal opinion. My dad was a nice. He was pretty handsome man, okay, he was tall. So you, know, I thought all fighter pilots are handsome right yeah, there could be that one too, but I mean, he was tall they're not all tall and they always used to say how in the world did he fit himself in that cockpit? He said I got in there, no problem.
Mark McGrath:How tall was your dad? Six foot one, six foot one. What did he weigh?
Mary Boyd:He actually was lanky, he wasn't really heavy. I'd say I'm not sure, but maybe 180, maybe when he was built. I mean I don't, I don't know if he ever pushed 200. I mean he was tall and lanky.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So so, six, one, one 80 ish going into engagement, uh, with other officers or um senior officials, uh, or even just an app, you know, just a conversation like this. What attracted people? You know what it was, it was, it was eyes. I do believe that.
Mary Boyd:I think you know, I don't know I always like to think when you look at someone, they always used to say the eyes are the soul. I don't know if that's true or not, but I always felt like he had what I call like friendly eyes, or you know a way. It's like it attracts people. When I told you when we were talking, that time I could be in the state of New York City and a crowd of people and strangers would walk up to me and hand me their camera and say, please take a picture. They don't know me from squat, but that was kind of the stuff, and my daughter has it happen to her.
Mary Boyd:So I think it's just something or something about. Maybe it's the shape of our eyes, I don't know, but there's something about our eyes that just makes us have, I guess, a friendly, open appearance, and that may play a part. And then, of course, dad, when he walks in a room he talks with his hands, like I'm doing. It makes it easy for people to see you and sometimes I think it makes excitement when you see somebody that's getting you know so excited about what they're talking about that you, hey, you want to listen in on too right. So I think that kind of plays in it too.
Mark McGrath:I would say I'm biased because I'm from Pittsburgh and I'm a Western Pennsylvanian. I would say the Western Pennsylvania is a fairly friendly place and people have an affability around them, like an approachability, I think.
Mary Boyd:I tell you what I used to be with my dad. He would be talking to everybody in the stores. You know I'd go to the grocery stores. He'd always be talking to people. I mean it was just kind of his thing. I mean he was. I just like to say, when I think of it, he just had an open personality about him. I think he was animated, so I think that meant a lot, you know.
Mark McGrath:I went through a transcript of Patterns of Conflict and he talks about Wayne Gretzky and I always wondered did your dad have? Was he a sports fan? Did he have favorite sports teams?
Mary Boyd:Oh, he was a fanatic when it came to football, for sure.
Mark McGrath:Who was his favorite team? I mean he definitely watched.
Mary Boyd:You know, I never really I mean I sit there and think back on it. I can't sit there. I know when we were young, we lived in Florida we watched the Miami Dolphins. Of course, when we were in the Washington area we became Redskins fans.
Mark McGrath:I wouldn't be surprised if Dad was watching a little bit of Pittsburgh too. Was that something that he would do on a Sunday? Watch football yeah, I can't imagine watching football with John Boyd going you know, going through. Oh, he'd be like get him get him.
Mary Boyd:Get him. Get him, he'd be hollering.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Get him get him, get him you know, yes, oh that's funny, Mark.
Mark McGrath:Did he ever work directly with.
Mary Boyd:did he ever talk with sports coaches or you know people in athletics about his days and ideas? I don't know that personally. I don't know that I have heard sports have used some of his stuff, but I don't know that directly, just interesting.
Mark McGrath:Was there any sport that he hated or loathed?
Mary Boyd:I remember him saying one time to me I can't remember, I think it was golf he said that was just he couldn't handle it, it was too slow.
Mark McGrath:Too slow, too slow Interesting.
Mary Boyd:I mean like, if you think about tennis, they're running back and forth, they're batting, right. I mean golf, you're just.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:There's no task interdependence in golf, there's no reciprocal, there's no back and forth, there's no offense and defense. Exactly Maybe there is.
Mary Boyd:Maybe there is that's right, but I don't ever remember him saying anything really complimentary about golf. Not to say that he was bad. I just don't recall.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:I can see the value in golf as being present. You have to be present to hit the ball. That's to make that connection. There is a OODA loop there. There's no doubt about it. It may not be up to speed. It's kind of weird. Most fighter pilots that I've worked with played golf. Right, I'm like, well, it's just kind of weird. And I think they played golf because alcohol was involved. So is it safe to say your dad did not play golf? As far as I know, he did.
Mary Boyd:Okay, if he did, he did it because other people asked him to and he was part of the group. If he did, he did it because other people asked him to and he was part of the group. But I don't think that was something like I'm going out golfing. I don't ever remember my dad saying that yeah, I just don't.
Mark McGrath:I can't imagine him playing golf. Just what I've learned.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So this is an interesting topic because I think Mark and I are the same. When we have a conversation with somebody, sometimes we scare people because we start talking about things that, um, they probably never heard of. Uh, so in a grocery store, I'm not going to pick up a conversation about the weather and things like that. That just kind of bores me to death. Uh, I much rather engage in something where there's a good back and forth and and, uh, there's some good insights being shared. Um, tell us about that. What if a typical conversation, if you can recall, would your dad go deep in the things or would he just kind of stay shallow? Uh, or is it contact?
Mary Boyd:I think it was, if you were receptive and and here's a good one uh, when, um, he'd come up and visit me, I had a friend named sue who actually worked in the peace corps, and so she was kind of an interesting character because she could tell you all these stories of things that had happened that you're like no way, this truly couldn't have happened. She's like, oh yeah, it did. Dad would talk to her and they just talked for length. He loved it and she loved it too. So she showed an interest in his stuff and I think that's really where it plays. I mean, if you show an interest, he's going to talk to you, if you're not, he'll be pleasant and he moves along. I think that's the best way to say it.
Mark McGrath:You mentioned arts. We're talking about entertainment with sports even. But I remember going through the archives and it must have been well, maybe we'll save nonfiction for later. But what kind of entertainment? Like literature, movies We've heard of Dune, we've heard of other things. What are the sorts of movies and books for entertainment, not for learning per se, that your dad was into?
Mary Boyd:Well on books once he really started going down the way that he went. He didn't read books for entertainment, it was all about knowledge.
Mark McGrath:Like no fiction, like he wasn't a big fiction reader no, no, no, but like dune he did love the movie.
Mary Boyd:I don't think he ever read the book, oh okay, but I mean you, if you remember. There's one line in there and I can see this is my dad.
Mark McGrath:The sleeper has awakened remember that sleeper has awakened.
Mary Boyd:Yeah so I think that I felt that, felt that way, I think a lot, you know, because he got all this knowledge. He's like you know, right.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, so he. So he wouldn't read, he wouldn't be prone to read fiction but movies.
Mary Boyd:Oh yeah, he was a bit. My mom and dad were big movie buffs.
Mark McGrath:Tell us more about that. Yeah, tell us more about that.
Mary Boyd:Well, when I was growing up, my dad would always go to the movie mariella, let's go to the movie. And we'd go see all these movies. I mean he was a big movie person, he loved it. I mean he did. And he, like you know, I was sitting there because I was talking to brian yes, his science fiction one was definitely doing. And, like I said, if I say that sleeper awake, I could just see you know dad thinking, oh, that's just like me when I learned all this knowledge right, I remember he remember he also liked, remember the last Starfighter. He liked that one.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Oh yeah, that's a classic, actually, that's a sleeper, that's a sleeper, that's an underrated movie, yeah he loved that one. That's the one with the video game. He plays a video game and ends up going to yeah, that's right.
Mark McGrath:And then they come down and they get him to go save Rylos yeah. Yeah, yeah, well I also think a lot of times, yeah, I think also dad loved the underdog too.
Mary Boyd:You know what I mean. Yeah, when you think about how he grew up, it made a lot of sense.
Mark McGrath:How about? How about, like military movies, like you know, a full metal jacket or platoon, cause he, actually he mentions platoon in the Parents of Conflict. Transcript.
Mary Boyd:Yes, he did. One of his favorites, though, was Patton. He really liked Patton, he did like Patton. Did he ever?
Mark McGrath:watch Godfather and stuff.
Mary Boyd:Oh yeah, he watched.
Mark McGrath:Godfather.
Mary Boyd:Sometimes I think I have to sit back and think and sometimes he goes. Well, we can't watch it. We got young people in the room.
Mark McGrath:Ah, gotcha, gotcha.
Mary Boyd:So that would be. You know, sometimes he wouldn't watch it.
Mark McGrath:That's why going to theater sometimes was his way to go see things, because then he didn't have to worry right and then we know he liked star trek because he named the, the, the versions of patterns of conflict and warps, and like warp one and warp two and everything oh, my whole family are star trek fans all of them, definitely star wars yeah, yeah, I was just gonna ask star wars yeah, he likes star wars okay, yeah I mean you have to remember it's entertainment, but it's fun entertainment and you know I mean that's okay.
Mary Boyd:You know he did like to be entertained so here's a.
Mark McGrath:So here's an interesting question, just based off the season that it is in an election year. You know, I find the more I get into your dad's work and the more it becomes me trying to develop and build it, I become apolitical right, and I I would think that your dad was more observational when it came to politics than participatory Is.
Mary Boyd:That was more observational when it came to politics than participatory.
Mark McGrath:Is that really his In a lot?
Mary Boyd:of ways. Yeah, I would say, I could hear, I could just.
Mark McGrath:But first, of all, he had no tolerance for liars.
Mary Boyd:And what do we have right now? We got a lot of lying going on.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:No, we don't.
Mary Boyd:It's all true. So dad could not stand that. I mean he really could not, and I could just remember. You know he'd like certain people, but you know he was also very careful when he said because you're supposed to be, when you're in the military you have to be careful, because some of those people you're commander in chief. Right about Reagan, that he was really upset about was that he was spending money on weapons.
Mark McGrath:that had no value whatsoever and it was just for jobs.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, which I hate to say it. I mean you could tell me I'm wrong. I kind of think the F-35s like that.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:There's a lot of things that are like that Working with state departments and a foreign area officer position. You see how we sell weapons to folks and the reason for it. Yeah, I hate to say that, but yeah, it hasn't changed.
Mary Boyd:And my dad used to always say follow the money, trail You'll find all the bad things, just follow the trail.
Mark McGrath:Well, yeah, and I love that I've written about this. Yeah, and I love that I've written about this. His definitions of evil and corruption are so specific and so attainable that they're not evil. With a guy twirling his mustache behind a curtain, it would make. It would lead me to believe exactly what you're saying, like he really wouldn't pick a party or whatever, because he would. He would focus on people and judge them by their actions and what he would observe them doing. Yeah, exactly.
Mary Boyd:Well, you know that famous quote about you know what's not to be or to do one, but about loyalty, right, yeah, that one plays well, if you want me to be loyal, I will be honest with you, you know, and then you be loyal. Honest to me, I'll be loyal to you, and it's the word honesty, think about that really rolls in there. I mean, I'll tell you, dad did not like a liar, not at all.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, and he wasn't afraid to call them out either. No-transcript how many times? So I know you did a lot of the typing and the recording and things like that. How many briefs did you attend yourself?
Mary Boyd:I actually did not. I was always, I mean, when it came to the, I mean dad would kind of brief me, you know, because he wanted someone to go over and he'd ask me, like I talked to you about Brian, words were extremely important to dad, so he would go over stuff with me and say, well, what do you think, you know, does this work for you? Do you think I'm you know? I mean he. It's not that he wanted to know my thinking per se, but what was the impact? Because, like I was telling pran, I said with the words he picked his words very carefully.
Mary Boyd:The idea was that you could visualize what he was saying. Why do you think he used the snowmobile? And he talks about the individual parts and how. When you look at his pieces they don't make any sense, but when you you put them all together, they become a snowmobile. So he was very much into the visualization. So when he talked, or he briefed, he wanted to make sure you understood what he was talking about and he loved for you to be able to visually see it. And I think of it sometimes. I used to be a trainer. There's nothing like the aha moment when you see someone, they get it.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:It's about the experience. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah.
Mark McGrath:Do you have any anecdotes or stories where you caused him to pivot his thinking, where you gave him a reply or a retort on a word or a briefing, where he said you know, Mary, I hadn't thought of that. I'm going to reorient.
Mary Boyd:I don't really recall, but I do recall him saying and I used the one with Brian about swirling and whirling Most people say it's the same thing. No, it's not. If you visually think about those two words, they are different visually. And so, instead of using swirl, what did he use? He used whirl. And he did. He asked me he says, well, what do you think? And so we went over it, you know, and I talked about it. I said what I thought about world and what I thought about swirl. So I probably did have some impact on that work. And that was kind of some of the conversations that we would have. He'd talk about a word and he'd ask me how did I visualize it?
Mark McGrath:So I want to hear what you think about these things I was just gonna say, like you couldn't google these things back then, right, so you're. You're looking through thesaurus or dictionaries oh, we always.
Mary Boyd:We had word book stars we had. Our house was full of books yeah you know my I hate to say this and I get it from my dad I used to get a lot of entertainment just going through the dictionary and looking at words. Oh okay, I just loved them. So I'm curious when you asked me about that. When we're having coffee I used to get a lot of entertainment just going through the dictionary and looking at words.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Okay, I just loved them. So I'm curious, when you asked me about that when we were having coffee, the difference between whirl and twirl again I didn't pull up my phone or anything like that. I said you know, I think one includes the agent. It's internal Whirling we're part of. Swirling may be something that's external to us. Right, and that was my take it and mark.
Mark McGrath:I want to see what your thoughts. I should ask you first before. Yeah, when I think of swirl, I think of what? A what? Let's say I got narcissist causes like they're trying to drag everybody with them down in a vortex. Exactly. Yeah, it's external, whereas whirl I'm, I'm, I'm causing something to to spin or spiral like a conceptual spiral. Yeah, yeah, and I love the fact that that's my favorite paragraph of conceptual spiral because it says you know, there's no way out and there's no way out of the world of reorientation.
Mark McGrath:So they tie in the swirl of reorientation would make no sense.
Mary Boyd:It just does Not. When you sit there and you picture that, because I think of a swirl, you know you talk about those eddies, you see where it's pulling you down, just like you were talking about. That's what I think of when I see swirl, whirl. I don't see it the same way.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, I think you want your opponents in swirl you want your opponents, swirling down a vortex of negative negativity and yeah, yeah exactly. You're whirling. That's right, that's what we're trying to whirl like. You're trying to maintain, yeah, a world, let them swirl, yeah, yeah I mean?
Mary Boyd:I just my dad was always big with words. Um, I mean just some anecdotal things. When we were growing up, my dad would automatically pronounce a word the way it was spelled, and I think it was to teach us how to spell. So instead of saying champagne, he'd say champagne, lasagna. You know I mean, we all knew I mean, but he would do that I mean, do you have a favorite word?
Mark McGrath:I don't know, but he used to do all of them. I mean he definitely played. Do you have?
Mary Boyd:a favorite word, I don't know, but he used to do all of them. I mean, you know the ones like that. I think it had. It wasn't India. Also, the other thing you know with Scott, my brother we're talking about the other day, his famous ones Like I guess you're supposed to be thinking about, and if you say anybody other than Grant, he's going to go. You know, I can remember him asking me this one what year was?
Mark McGrath:the War of 1812? Yeah, I live in Manhattan, mary, and you could ask that question to anybody, and they don't know the answer, and it's scary. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a good one, um, so we got books. There was no google, I mean that's. I think that's. The other thing that's amazing about your dad, too. Is that how much he consumed, um, by way of books. Now, one of the things we're in the archives uh, we opened up a book called how the leopard changed its spots that was my dad's.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, and I think there's a card in there that you wrote and it says dad's favorite book, or one of dad's favorites book. What do you think that he liked about that book? What was his favorite?
Mary Boyd:Well, if you think about how a leopard changes its spots, I mean so you are able to change, I think adaptation, you know all that plays a part in it. I mean, if you think about what he's talking about, the whole orientation thing, it's about taking something and being able to change. So an example of the leopard, it was their environment and so forth. So yeah, and I think also it comes with it. What people don't forget is they only think of the term of a military. Dad didn't see it that way.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah.
Mary Boyd:He saw it environmentally, he saw it within the head. I mean, he saw it in so many and his, his books was a list of all different you know pieces and he managed to. I mean, he, I would say he's picking pieces out of everything you know.
Mark McGrath:I mean that's what he did, he just picked it out you know, we we've, you know, we know a few of the acolytes that are left that have that have shared stories about your dad and one of the things I thought was interesting was that exact topic of evolutionary biology. He was saying that, um, you know, even in the last days of his life, your dad was still talking about evolutionary biology yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, yeah, that's how he was.
Mary Boyd:I mean, that's why when people say, well, did he read books for entertainment? Well, maybe it was entertaining to him and other people wouldn't see it as entertaining, but it wasn't really entertaining books. Now, not to say that he couldn't have probably read stuff and find some application to it if he could, you know, but majority of the time, no, it was stuff like how a leopard changes his spots and those types of things.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, so we there we've talked recently, um, with someone that did a uh, a PBS special on on on Erie and we had them on the show. And again, being a Western Pennsylvania, I know that most of us are pretty loyal to our cities, be it Pittsburgh or Erie or wherever else. You know, and I get the feeling from the quorum book that your dad was really loyal and proud of being from Erie, pa. What would you share about that? Maybe his impressions of where he came from?
Mary Boyd:Well, I would say, when we were growing up, my dad wasn't one to go on a lot of vacations, but he always went home to Erie. I mean, even after my grandmother was gone, he always went home to Erie, you know, and he had friends back there, you know. But I mean he loved to go out on the peninsula and look out. I mean remember he was a swimmer and everything and so he loved going out on the beach and seeing. I mean that was what he liked, that was his hometown and it stuck with him, I think, all the way to the end. That was it. And you're right, I mean some of you Pennsylvania people, you're really loyal to your town.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Dad, was you brought up earlier that you're talking about your dad's early growing up in Erie. I'm curious if we can go back into that and maybe pick up where I mean a lot of it's picked up in Cormorant's book and other places. But what about you? What was it like being a daughter of John Boyd? I mean just just you know as a father, goods and others, anything you want to share growing up.
Mary Boyd:Well, when we moved in, obviously I was fairly small. When we were in Eglin, you know little, I mean. Earliest things I can remember is my dad teaching me to swim. Obviously he was a swimmer, so I remember that I did learn to swim out in the Gulf. He'd take me go to the beach and he'd take us out there and then he'd say, swim back to shore. I mean he'd stay right with you but you'd swim back to shore and stuff like that.
Mary Boyd:When we moved up here into Virginia at the time we ended up in a place called Bright Square, virginia. At the time we ended up in a place called Brighton Square, but at the time it wasn't even built. We lived in a hotel for about, I guess about two or three months and then we moved in to Brighton Square and the majority of people that lived there were people who didn't have both parents. You know, lots of widows or divorcees or whatever. So in some ways we were kind of the oddball. Not always, I mean, there were other families there, but in a lot of ways we kind of were the oddball.
Mary Boyd:We had both a mom and a dad, you know and that's not to say that anybody else, I mean one of my really good close friends. Her father died, so it was just her mom, you know. I mean we had a guy that lived up, a family that lived upstairs. The father, I mean, he got killed in Vietnam. I mean things like that happen. You know so in a lot of ways. But you know, as a kid, do you really pay attention to what dad does? Nah, no, you don't. I would say he would come to my swim meets. I do remember him coming to my swim meets, but he didn't do a lot of other things. I mean, he was so wound up in his own work and I guess, um, as I got older, then he started drawing me right and that's how I probably got.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:I think that's how we all got involved, I think for context, um, I want to share this with our listeners Military members are were unique, right. So the timeframe you're talking about your dad's still wearing a uniform. A lot of times we put work in front of family. I've done that. I'm sure Mark's done that. You hear stories about people focused on the mission and the family suffers because you're not your full self at home. So I know I've been like that in my past. I have friends that have gone through divorces that were, you know, combat related things. You're just at a different level when you come home, higher, you know anxiety and things like that.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:The context in the seventies, the period we're kind of talking about now, going into the 80s, you know not a lot going on. We're coming out of Vietnam but your dad is fighting wars inside the Pentagon, Right, Right. So he's on a mission. So I don't think what's happening or what happened with your dad is any different than what is going on or happening today in the military. So in that context, Mary, if you can, and like you said, a lot of kids don't know what their parents do and I could tell my kids I'm a dirt farmer and they'd be happy with that because they don't know. Reflecting back on your childhood, what was special and or missing from it, from your father?
Mary Boyd:When I think back on my, I mean I knew my dad was in the military. I don't want you to ever think I didn't know it. I mean because I did. And to me, like, sometimes it was fairly traumatic to me when dad would go to go to Vietnam or something, we had to drive him all the way out here to Dulles Airport because that was where they landed the military transports, I mean, and at that time, just to let you know, there wasn't all this buildup around here, it was sat out in the middle of nowhere, right, and so we would drive dad out.
Mary Boyd:To me it was very scary as a kid because will dad come home, you know, even though dad wasn't always around, but will dad come home? You know, and I can remember thinking as a child and I'm not saying that, you know, my perspective is any better than anybody else but when you know, when the soldiers came home from the war and stuff and people were spitting on them and all that stuff, I found that absolutely appalling. Now, being a child of a military member, not surprising, because I mean we were raised basically. Basically, you know, you're in service to your country. I mean, so you're going to serve your country. Not, you're not going to like every duty that you get. I mean that goes with that. And for someone to spit on somebody after they were fighting, whether you agreed with the war or not, it's not the soldiers fault. It's really the politicians that got us there, if you think about it.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:No, agree, yeah, you know so so that and that you know.
Mary Boyd:But then I think that we've gone, sometimes we've gone too far, the opposite way, we know, we we're not, I guess you know. I remember someone telling me I maybe it was dad I can't remember it said we do extremes, we're really good at it. So, like over vietnam, they had this uh ceremony where they would sprinkle the water. The americans would just throw you a whole bucket of water on you. They were out of control. So in some aspects we did stuff like that.
Mark McGrath:We were kind of extreme kind of the last question, I guess, on your childhood. I've brought this up on on other episodes and I've always wondered, you know when, when your dad was still a fighter pilot, and he's coming up with things like the aerial attack study and he's coming up with energy maneuverability theory, and he's going to Georgia Tech and he's getting his degree in industrial engineering and he's doing all this reading and research and he's got a wife and five kids and one of your siblings had special needs. I always wondered did your dad ever sleep? What was his? What were his sleep? What were his sleep habits? Like Cause, I've heard about how he ate and he said, well, it's just fuel, I'm just eating, you know, and he would. But I just wondered if, like how, what was his approach to rest and sleep, because I can't imagine everything that he had to do to keep, you know, kept him busy. How did he sleep?
Mary Boyd:Well, you know, I mean, I have. I actually have a picture somewhere in my house I have no idea where dad was thinking and he was sitting on his bed and he fell asleep and he was like this, like you know you're thinking about, he fell asleep like that. I actually got a picture of that. I got it somewhere in my house. You know, you're thinking about it. He fell asleep like that. I actually got a picture of that. I got it somewhere in my house, you know. But I guess you know sometimes that's basically how it went, you know.
Mary Boyd:I mean, obviously we all had our bad times and maybe he was able to unwind and maybe not, I don't know. I suspect I don't know that when we went on vacation it was easier for him, and I think about back on a lot of vacations we went on it was just my mom. She'd drive us all over the place. We'd go to Florida, we'd go everywhere. I'm not to say that. You know, dad, if you wanted to go to Erie, he was always up for Erie, you know, but usually it was mom. She would pack us all in a station wagon and drive us.
Mark McGrath:Would he take books with him when he traveled? Would he travel yeah, he did. How many on a trip, like a week trip? How?
Mary Boyd:many would you? You know, I don't remember because I was kind of small, you know and. I mean usually when you're a little kid, you're kind of focusing on what's going on there, you know like. But like when he would go to Erie, though, he would visit all his friends.
Mark McGrath:You know his friends, you know he, you know so he, how fast could your dad read a book Like what was, what were his reading habits that he had? I mean, cause we've gone through the archives and we've seen the underlining and the and the margin notes and things like that, and clearly he's consuming these books. But I wonder, like you know, was he a speed reader or how did how did he go through them?
Mary Boyd:I suspect, don't know. I I mean. I mean I can remember him and watching him and then taking out a pen or a pencil and marking.
Mary Boyd:I suspect he read him three or four times okay, and every time that he went through, he found another nice little nugget. You know, it's like when you go and watch a movie for the first time, right, you see stuff, but you don't see all of it, and then, because you've gotten to the front end of it, the next time, you start picking out more detail, right, I think that was the same way with his books, you know, because, like you'll see, you'll have underlines and you get the plus, plus, pluses, and it just seems like he just keeps building, building, building, building, which implies to me that he read it more than one time. Yeah, or he saw something that made him go back to it because it was key to something else, that made him go back to it because it was key to something else.
Mark McGrath:So on that note, you know we've got a lot of photos that we took of, say, on War by Clausewitz. I mean, is there any? So obviously the notes speak for themselves. But when we see the plus, plus, plus, I mean is there any code to Boyd's annotations? The heavier, the marking.
Mary Boyd:I think the heavier the market, the more important it was. That's the way I would put it. So if he did just an underline, okay it's. It's got a little bit of value there. But if you start seeing the plus, plus, pluses and everything else about it, then it has a lot more value.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yes, mary, when we were having our conversation and I share with you that my viewpoint on on aviators aviators coming in through the Navy we're kind of the nerds of the world that just happen to go fly. Our brains are wired a little bit different. We go through some amazing training on how to pay attention to what's going on around us. It's kind of getting into that. What is that typical or atypical brain that goes into the fighter community? I'm curious. Reflecting back to our conversation and we actually talked about neurodiversity as well I would argue that many in my community in the fighter aviation community, there's some neurodiversity there. How about your father?
Mary Boyd:At a minimum for sure he was ADHD, because I don't know how much you all know, but that is definitely hereditary. That gene just does not quit. Everybody in my family has it, every last one of us. I have heard other people describe dad as maybe having Asperger's. I don't know that and I'm not saying that he did. You know he was never diagnosed with it, but he was definitely ADHD Because, like you know, when you're an ADHD person you move really fast and then we'll have that real intense where you can really concentrate and you can just block everything out. That was so dad out that was so bad, that was so bad.
Mary Boyd:And then, well, all of his kids had it too, and that comes from my grandmother's side of the family, that much I do know okay the buyer side, if that makes any sense to you. But he, he definitely had, he was definitely neurodiversity. Yes, definitely, for sure, I mean it gave him a great edge, I think.
Mary Boyd:Well, it does. But you know, I think it also does for people, and I don't think people realize it. Until you've been it, you're a little bit more sympathetic to others because you're having to deal with your own stuff. So you have a tendency to be able to look at others and think, okay, I can see where they're going with this. And other people go, they're just a crackpot, I mean, not to say sometimes not crackpots, but I can also see him saying, yeah, well, okay, I mean, there's probably some value to that. I think it gives you another way of looking at stuff. It's not always, I mean, a lot of people say, you know, got to think outside the box. I mean, yeah, I mean it's raw, uda, right, it's raw.
Mark McGrath:It's seeing the world for what it actually is that you cannot. You know, maybe there's an edge in aligning perception with reality and seeing what others don't.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, yeah, well, I would say, you know he had definitely the hyper focus, which I have it too. I mean, I used to be able to work in a room where a hundred people be talking and I'd be just sitting there doing it and they're like, how in the world do you do that? I'm like, I'm focusing, I'm just focusing. And I know my dad was like that. Can you imagine him studying books while the kids are screaming and running all around the house? He did it no-transcript.
Mark McGrath:Trying to carry it on what? What do you think he was chasing or pursuing? What do you think it is that he could see? That other people just haven't caught up with them yet.
Mary Boyd:I would just you know when I sit there and I think back on it and I mean, and you know, I just you know when I sit there and I think back on it and I mean, you know, I mean, it's it's, it's as simple as you know. You should always be open to learning. There's always going to be new things, always going to be challenged. You know nothing. Well, I remember one of dad's favorite comments he used to make when they'd say we got this expert. You know what my dad said about an expert that's somebody who can no longer learn. They've learned everything and dad was very open to always learning new. He was always looking at everything and I and he taught us as kids to do that. You know, I mean, we really did. You know, and I think it's true for everybody, when you give up learning and and just stick to it, you, you, you stopped. And so when you talk about the oodle, oop in that very simple picture, well, they're not really learning, they're just taking something and going okay, got it do you?
Mark McGrath:really no, you don't, you don't it's unfortunately a lot more common than it, than it should be. In the work that we do, we really try to dispel that. Um, because you know, again going back to our time in the archives, I mean you know we've spent several days in there from open to close, and you know the full work day at marine corps university in quantico feels like 30 minutes. Yeah, because you're going through, you're going through this stuff and and it just it connects so many dots and you realize, even even beyond the briefings and things like that, there was so much that your dad was was thinking about and talking about that just gets completely missed, which is another reason why I think that you know we want to see those things get digitized.
Mary Boyd:I would say one of the important things about his books and I think it's true, and I think it's probably true for you two gentlemen as well is I can remember my dad would be reading something. He'd go oh yeah, you know what's over in this book, and he'd pull that book out, like I talked about that referencing, and you get all the pluses and everything else that would be going on. He really had a sharp, sharp memory on. He really had a sharp, sharp memory, a very extreme memory, so he could think when he'd be reading something he'd go yeah, I was mentioning him in this book and he could pull it out and stuff. So he'd had a very good memory too as well.
Mark McGrath:Do you ever, do you ever remember time in his studying or interacting with him where you know he had thought something and then he just let go of it because he realized it was not accurate or not correct? Cause I think that's one of his big talents or big gifts is that he could let go and move on when he learned in light of new information, rather than ride something all the way down to the bottom that's not true.
Mary Boyd:No, he was very open to moving on. Yeah, yeah, he definitely was. I don't recall anything per se, but I can think of times where he thought of something maybe and he goes, nah, that's not right. I can think of times where he thought of something maybe and he goes, nah, that's not right. And then off to another tangent. He would go, I mean, yeah, and see, I think that goes with the neurodiversity. Yeah, you know, I mean it really kind of plays well with it. I mean, how many you know what's that movie where the guy's got the fake dog and the squirrel? Yeah, I think of that. You know what I want to talk about? The balloons I can't think of a name.
Mark McGrath:It's called Up, up, yeah.
Mary Boyd:Squirrel yeah, exactly that's our line. That rang so true for me. That whole movie it was all about that squirrel. I'm like oh God, I understand that one. How many times did you start down something and you get distracted? And the thing that you get distracted with is definitely important, but it's the squirrel.
Mark McGrath:Well, I guess another thought or another question then is, like you know, in that he was neurodiverse and in that he was able to let go of things when, when new information showed that that was outdated or irrelevant or obsolete or whatever, would he take things personally? Would he take things really personally?
Mary Boyd:The only time that I could think my dad would take things personally and this is my own point is if he felt you sold out. It's just like the line thing, it's just oh, no, no.
Mark McGrath:So, the beer to do, the beer to do.
Mary Boyd:Oh, he lived it and he really meant it when he talked about it. He definitely that's fascinating.
Mark McGrath:That's a really so he wouldn't take his academic points personally, but but the personal traits of of integrity and things like that, he would take those. Yes, he would take those.
Mary Boyd:Wow. Now, if he really thought you were off part, he might try to talk to you about it. But if you were just going to go down that rabbit hole, no matter what he'd be like okay, and then he'd move on. You know, when you I mean at some point there's there's no longer any discussion to be made. If you're stuck and you're not going anywhere, why bother?
Mark McGrath:Yeah.
Mary Boyd:But if you were open to listen, he would always share, always but, you would need he, you would need like 12 hours though, right yeah well, that that was I mean in the book of corn talked, I think. I think corn talked about, if he didn't, I do know about they used that was it was jim burton. He said he had the void phone yeah, oh yeah, phone number just for him and dad and that's.
Mary Boyd:But dad was like that with me too. He'd call me and we talk about a word or an idea, and it wasn't like a 10 minute talk.
Mark McGrath:Here we're talking an hour on the phone easily but, but at all hours of the night too right like two in the morning three.
Mary Boyd:Sometimes he did. He'd have an idea.
Mark McGrath:Yep, he'd call so it goes back to my question where did this guy sleep?
Mary Boyd:well, there's that picture. I said I have him on the bed. He fell asleep like this. Yeah, I mean he did obviously sleep, but oh, yeah, yeah yeah, but he, I guess when he was thinking when he get in his turn, I mean you do it too. Come on, tell me, you don't do it. When you get on something and you're really into it, you don't just stop and put it no, no, you get.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:You get in a state of you get in a state of flow, you, you, the world just shuts down around you. Sometimes it's kind of funny and my wife and my kids will tell me you know, um, this, by the way, this doesn't happen all the time for me. So so it's there are periods when you just kind of get focused on something and then, you know, go to the wood, you know woodshed, build some things, come out and go look what I did, you know, but uh, and that's, that's. That is just, you know, ultimate OODA loop right there. That is being in a state of flow.
Mark McGrath:I mean he didn't have any hobbies, right? I mean he was studying and reading that was his hobby, that was his hobby. Did he have a favorite food? Or is it just all fuel, as the book says?
Mary Boyd:Well, it was fuel, but it wasn't always fuel. Okay, I think part of the reason why people talked about how fast he ate is don't forget, he was part of World War II, he was part of the war ii, he was part of the korean war. And when they would go and your your meal time, how long was it?
Mary Boyd:no, 40 seconds you eat as fast as you can, because you had to get back out on the battlefield or whatever. I mean, let's be honest. So he learned that. I mean I used to laugh about it, I think about it and it's funny, but an egg, a fried egg, there was no chew, it was was just, it was gone. You know, I suspect all that came from, literally from being in war.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:No, I agree, the way we ate on an aircraft carrier, you ate.
Mary Boyd:That's it.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:And you got to go do something yeah.
Mary Boyd:But I can remember when, you know, I became an adult and my dad did like I'll tell you, he loved Italian food. That was his all-time favorite. We had this one restaurant that's gone now. He'd go. Let's go down there. He says, let's go get a bottle of Chianti and get us some spaghetti. We'd go out and have that bottle of Chianti and have that spaghetti. He loved it. He really did. He did like to dine. Yes, he I mean yes, he ate fast, but he definitely liked to dine, he did.
Mark McGrath:Did he have?
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:any favorite drinks. I know Mark brought that up already, but you know I used to consume a lot of alcohol. It was kind of the culture of fighter aviation. But wine, beer, anything like that, what did he like?
Mary Boyd:Dad. Well, now this is dad. Now he always felt beer was low class, did not? Wine was what he drank. And you know I I wonder sometimes, why is that? But let's go back to erie what it was an immigrant community, for the most part. What were there?
Mark McGrath:a lot of there a lot of italians, a lot of a lot of germans, a lot of a lot of polish. Yeah, yeah, very, very, very ethnic. So he probably had exposure to a lot of great cuisines oh yeah, he should put that inside orientation yeah culture.
Mark McGrath:I'm kidding did he have it well, so, so that I guess it kind of. You know we're talking about. You know the human side of boyd, you know that did. Was there like a favorite dessert that he had like? Did he like his? Did his mother have like a famous oatmeal cookie recipe or something that he loved, or Dad was a sweetaholic, that's the best way I can describe it.
Mary Boyd:Okay, like here's a couple of anal dives, and I mean these are. They're funny when you think about it. He'd come home with this huge box of chocolates, right, and he'd say to my mom hey, mary, look what I got you. And mom would roll her eyes. He'd sit down and he'd eat the whole box and leave her. Like one Ice cream He'd buy, you know, like a gallon of ice cream. He'd sit and eat the whole ice cream. He didn't eat just some, he ate the whole thing In 40 seconds.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, I mean he just he ate it. I mean he loved the sweets. I can remember going down and visiting him or he'd come up and visit me. We talked about chocolate shops, bread shops, you know different shops where you could go get goodies. You know, I mean he was definitely into the goodies, totally into goodies.
Mary Boyd:I can remember when I was a teenager they used to call them hot Sam's, but they're the pretzels. You're from Pennsylvania, you know those hot pretzels. Oh, he loved pretzels and they had this shop down here called hot Sam. We always had to go down and get a hot Sam, you know. You know he would definitely like this goodies. That's the best I could say. He was definitely a goody person. But I mean, my, my aunt was like that too. That too she knew every chocolate shop, you know, and everything else. I think they even talked about when my dad was growing up. My grandma was selling pies to help make ends meet. My dad would get in the pies will be cooling on the on the ledge and she'd get so mad because then she couldn't sell it because he ate it. You know he had a sweet tooth how about music?
Mark McGrath:what was? Do you have a favorite music?
Mary Boyd:Ride of the Valkyries.
Mark McGrath:Oh.
Mary Boyd:Definitely.
Mark McGrath:Which makes me ask the next question Did he watch Apocalypse?
Mary Boyd:Now yeah, oh, yes, he did, yes, he did.
Mark McGrath:Okay, yes, he did so that particular piece of music. But did he have a genre? Did he like classical? He was classical, he liked the classical, did, did he have like a genre that he liked. He was classical. He liked the class yeah.
Mary Boyd:No, he wasn't a rock and roll. He liked classical. He was classical.
Mark McGrath:Definitely. How about jazz?
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah.
Mary Boyd:I don't recall that he ever liked it. I can't sit there and say he disliked it. I just know, when I was growing up I remember it was always the classic, like Tchaikovsky, fagner, it was the classics.
Mark McGrath:Some of the acolytes that we've talked to have told us, you know, he was not a technophobe. He was all about technology. So long as it was people, ideas and technology in that order. Do you ever recall, like you know, when he would bring home a new technology like an 8-track or something like that? Was he excited about bringing something new?
Mary Boyd:I remember when he brought home the calculator, he thought that was when they went to the little handheld calculator. I remember that when he brought that thing home, I do remember that. But see, when he did music, though, he had the big reeled reels. Remember they used to buy the big reeled reels. Yeah, I actually have some of the reel-to-reel tapes, I think right here in this room, of stuff that he listened to.
Mark McGrath:This is a kind of silly question. I'm sure the answer is yes, but he did wear a watch, correct?
Mary Boyd:Oh, yes, yes, he did.
Mark McGrath:Did he transition from analog to digital when digital watches came online in the 80s? No, no.
Mary Boyd:He did not do the digital, he did the analog, as far as I can remember well, no, maybe I'm wrong there, now that I think about it when they got so cheap because my dad was cheap, you know if he thought he was getting a deal. So I think when you could buy those digital watches, they're like five bucks or something, yeah, but now that was like for everyday use. Now if he went out somewhere to visit somebody then he put on his nice watch, his analog watch.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:So I want to flip back to some of the things we brought up at coffee a few months ago or a month ago. And this comes back to something we brought up earlier in this conversation and that is the potential classification of his work. You know it could have been classified, we could argue that it should be uh, but not everybody understands it. Uh, making the work available for folks is is critical, and my question to you is uh, when you look at, um, the number of people that that you know Mark brought it up that that do a linear OODA loop and sketched out like that, what, what are they missing? I mean, what, what are they missing about your father's work? I want to, I want to get in that a little more from your perspective.
Mary Boyd:I would say you know when I we talked about it, like when I think about when dad you know when he was flying and everything we talked about the words and the visuals and stuff. You've got someone barking in your ear and you're paying attention to everything at the same time, so you're taking stuff in from everywhere and still trying to deal with it yeah I don't know that everybody can do that and I I I know they've got studies out that they talk about it, where most people they learn one way versus the other.
Mary Boyd:So maybe you're just a visual learner and the other people are more audible. I think that was both. I truly do, and the reason why I say that. I got tested one time and they said I was like 49, 51. They said that's very unusual.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Okay, no, and just for the context, in an aircraft, when you're at that time flying an F-86 in Korea, you have ground control, you're flying a formation, you have people talking on the radio. You don't have a radar on the aircraft, so you're being talked on to things. You have to create a mental picture of what's going on. So you got jet noise, you got motion, you got Gs on the body, you got all these things going, weather things all around you. And what I'm trying to do is construct something for those that aren't familiar with fighter aviation. Get into modern aircraft and a generation four aircraft. You're just overloaded with information. There's just too much right, and over time you have to learn how to filter out, or yeah, so that's happening in the cockpit and that's why I think it.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Actually, I would argue that that type of environment potentially shapes the way you perceive reality in the future, because you're just used to taking in all this information. So there is something there from a fighter pilot. Not everybody can do that, by the way. I mean, not everybody can pay. Most people don't even know where they are when they're driving a car, right? So there is something pretty interesting about the mind that's needed to go into fighter aviation and in fact, they test for it right. Spatial orientation, things like that, uh, they, they do now, uh, cause your body's in awkward positions. So, uh, that, that is you, and I kicked around that, that that topic, uh, a few months ago, as well as what's going on in the cockpit, because that's important for people to understand, that type of thinking applied to a static, more static environment.
Mary Boyd:Right, it's a constant feed coming at you all the time and that's like the OODA loop. That's what that really is. I mean for someone to sit there and just say it's this little thing and that's, it's not. It's a constant feed going on, and I think that's probably the hardest thing for people to understand. That's the big hurdle. But there are people who want to say been there, done that, I'm moving on. Well, it's never that simple. It's just not that simple.
Mark McGrath:I was speaking with someone the other day and it's an industry where there's a lot of former military and they were saying that you know, why don't more military people talk about this? And my answer was I think they learn what and how, but they'd never get to the bottom of what actually is going on in the scope of complexity, like what actually, as you say, you know is going on beyond a simple little ditty that I learned to get me out of a certain situation, that I don't understand the bigger, broader picture that this is helping me navigate the universe. You know, I think that's what people miss. Yeah, I'm guilty.
Mary Boyd:Like.
Mark McGrath:I had to step out. When I got out of the Marine Corps and I was working in, you know, the world of capital markets. That's when it hit me. I'm like holy cow, this guy Boyd with the Boyd cycle and the OODA loop there's a lot more to this. I need to start digging on this. And then the Chet Richards book came out, and the Ocinga book came out and everything else. And then it's just like how did we miss this? Like wow.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Hey, mark, you just triggered something for me, so you know you have a heuristics inside the Marine Corps. I might get this wrong. Take the high ground, stay. That's a heuristic. I think a lot of folks look at Boyd's OODA loop as a heuristic. It's not observer-oriented side act. It's like no, this is not a heuristic.
Mark McGrath:No, no. They reduce it, they limit it, they limit their own power.
Mary Boyd:They put it in the box instead of thinking out of the box.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's right. Putting it in the box, that's right. Yeah, so in, yeah, so, so, uh, and and in complexity, you do need a heuristic right. Heuristics are good, um, but that's not what this is about. Then, and I, just when you brought that up there, mark, and I'm like you're right, this is, I think, too many people reduce it down to that, reduce it first you observe, then you orient, then you decide and then you act.
Mark McGrath:I'm like yeah yeah, like you tape it up on your hud and your cockpit, you know or you tape it or you write it on your hand.
Mark McGrath:you know you write it on your hand when you're doing your op order, like, oh yeah, I gotta observe, or, okay, what do I do next? And you see people say, like the orientation phase, like like they've really focused on just the verb of orientation, not the noun, not the, not the cognitive software, the, the being of a human, that, uh, that shapes how they sense, make and form hypotheses and test those hypotheses and learn from them. They're totally missing the boat. Yeah, that's our mission, that's what we try to do.
Mary Boyd:And everybody sees things differently based on who they are, and that's the hardest part, that's the hardest part Like you said that loop. They talk about all the little pieces of the orientation. I mean, other places are there, but the orientation is really the key, because what you do by your orientation is based on so many things.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:And that's what we just constructed here with your father. You know, the Erie, pennsylvania connection, fighter aviation, the education, all these things matter, the way the mind is developed. It's all there, right, I mean, that's why we kind of that's why this conversation is important is who? Who is one Mary Boyd and who is John Boyd, from from the daughter's perspective.
Mark McGrath:Mary, okay, sorry.
Mary Boyd:Go ahead.
Mark McGrath:No, go ahead. No, you finish up, go ahead. Well, no, I was. I was just curious on that. On that note, you know what areas that you're aware of your father's work that you think are misunderstood and need more clarification or need further study or elaboration or need more attention. What are those that you think of? I mean, clearly, the OODA loop being reduced, is that, I mean, that's, it doesn't work.
Mary Boyd:It doesn't work, I think, with the OODA loop, particularly the whole orientation side, which is very, extremely important. As our technology increases and other things change, our orientation is going to change and people have to really be open to learning new ideas, learning new things, because it's not stagnant in any form and, as I said before, everybody wants to go bin there, done that, put it away. You cannot do that. That was the whole point. That's why dad left it open, because he's expecting people to take the information and build upon it. I mean, I mean, that's kind of where it's. I mean, if you think about the people he looked at, he looked at sun tzu, he looked at me with it, I think it's the five rings, that's miyota. I think, yeah, I mean he was.
Mary Boyd:He was pulling from everywhere and we should continue to do that. That is so important because the orientation changes with the technologies and what's going on in the world. It's not, as I said. You can't be putting it in the box because it doesn't belong in the box.
Mark McGrath:I love it when, like, we can punch and I get rid of this all the time so we'll put a post up about your dad or his work, you know an UDA or something or write an article on a blog or whatever. And then some genius, some academic person, usually from another country.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:An expert, there you go, an expert.
Mary Boyd:Usually from another country.
Mark McGrath:Usually not from the United States, but they write. This one happened actually this week. Ever heard of Ludwig von Bertel-Anfi? You should read Pogliani. Ever heard of ludwig von bergel anfi? You should read uh poliani. Ever heard of carl popper? And they're they're actually citing authors that your dad cites in the bibliography of his work. It's a okay. You've never read anything boyd talked about and you probably have never read at a deep level any of the things that you're saying. I should go read because, like, you've totally missed the connection and all you did was prove John Boyd's relevance Exactly, which is great.
Mary Boyd:But that's the fun part, oh yeah.
Mark McGrath:Those are what. Would you call it a cape job, or you know, like those.
Mary Boyd:There you go. That was the pleasant term. The cape job that was the pleasant term.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, unbelievable, that was the pleasant term. The cave job, that was the pleasant term, yeah, unbelievable, but it's fun, I mean. I think that also too, like you know, studying this office, oh, dad got fun out of it, you know he did.
Mary Boyd:You know, sometimes it was I don't want to say it was almost in the meanness of the spirit, but sometimes it really was, because they were being such idiots. Yeah, and they were trying to. That's why you say that his comment on an expert was that somebody that can no longer learn they know everything. Yeah, yeah, and you know that's not true.
Mark McGrath:But what are some other? What are some other things you know again beyond OODA loop being, you know?
Mary Boyd:what are some other things that you think that we need to explore further on the work that your data was trying to do.
Mary Boyd:Well, it is very open ended.
Mary Boyd:I would say mostly, I think, of the orientation side, which is what I think dad would.
Mary Boyd:I mean, it's not that the other parts didn't play a part, but that's the part that has the most effect, right, I would say for people who are going to train it orientate you know the OODA loop that that's where they really going to have to put a lot of their emphasis is on the orientation and and do it in such a way to show them their own biases. Because that's what ends up killing everybody on the orientation is when you use your own biases and you don't look outside of those biases. Yeah, as, as you said, you heard from everybody when dad knew he was wrong, he just he left it in the dust. You can't, you can't keep the bias, you have to move on. So I would say to you, if you're all going to train it, that's one of the things when you're training it Show people their biases, show them so they can learn how that even you know, even though they're being it, they're taking it in, they're still retaining their biases, and that's that's probably the hardest thing to overcome when it comes to orientation.
Mark McGrath:We had James Gimion on, who I'm sure your father would love to have had a conversation with about Sun Tzu, and in the episode I had mentioned the song that my daughters listen to by Taylor Swift, and it's called the Antihero, where she says I'll stare directly in the sun, but I'll never look in the mirror, like I'll never look directly in the mirror to the things that you're talking about, my biases and things like that turns people off, because it does force them to look in the mirror and shatter what they're comfortable with, what they're used to, how they learned it in school or whatever, and that's that's a that's uncomfortable. And what they're not realizing is that that, this comfort, that uneasiness, that's where the growth comes, that's where the, that's where the knowledge comes from, that's how the conceptual spiral keeps, keeps going and the insight and the imagination that's in the. You know, that's where that comes from.
Mary Boyd:So I mean that would be my take on it. I mean I you know I'm not the best mind on this or anything, but that's how I see it is. You know, that's the hardest part of the whole thing, cause if you can't get orientation, the rest of it doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Yeah it doesn't, because everything that you based on your orientation, is going to make the things that you decide to do, so and bias is going to be the killer all the way.
Mark McGrath:One of our collaborators and friends, john Robb, has been talking exactly about that and really hammering on how the orientation, you know, and it's also fractal, it's individual and it's cultural, how we're really screwing things up because we get orientation wrong and then when the orientation is wrong, when you go through that process of UDA, it's just going down. That swirl, there's, the swirl, right, there's the swirl. It's degrading, it's negative versus the world, bringing people up.
Mary Boyd:I always bring that up because I think that's a good example and I mean I was surprised that you said that was your favorite one, but it's true. I mean I always remembered that because I thought about it afterwards when we were discussing. It's true, when I think of swirl, I think of the Eddie, like the water pulling you down instead of it moving around, which is what dad wanted. That's why we talked about that, Instead of it moving around which is what dad wanted.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's why we talked about that. This is fantastic, the conversation we had with Mark from I'll get his last name wrong Squilia. From Erie, Pennsylvania, From Erie, yeah, yeah, To get something in motion to either name a school, a street, whatever it may be in Erie, Pennsylvania, after your father. They're trying to reignite that, if you will. So my question to you is we know Nellis Air Force Base has a few buildings named or a building named after your father.
Mary Boyd:It's the right building too. Let me put it. Do you know which building it is? No, I'm going to leave that one for you. You go look it up and see which building it is. No, no, it's the. Oh, I'm gonna leave that one for you. You go look it up and see which building it is, because I would tell you it's the perfect build. I think when they picked it they thought they weren't doing him any favors, but it was the right building. Do you know, mark?
Mark McGrath:well, I was gonna say I thought it was a like a classroom, an academic building for fighter weapons school but it's got a name boyd hall right, yeah, but it also had another name oh, okay
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:well, I'll have to dig this up.
Mark McGrath:I'm not, I'm not a zoomie, so I don't know one of the four, in fact one of the four, I believe I don't remember the exact name, but it's the adversary.
Mary Boyd:It's about the adversary okay, okay so the way I looked at, it're the adversary, you're the bad guy and the other guys are the good guys.
Mark McGrath:I said you picked the building for my dad. He loved it.
Mary Boyd:Oh, he's the red team.
Mark McGrath:Like the red team. Oh got it.
Mary Boyd:I think the original people that picked that building thought they weren't really doing him a favor, and the laugh is on them.
Mark McGrath:It's always how it works out with John Boyd. The laugh's always on the people that try to denigrate him. It always blows up in their face.
Mary Boyd:I remember we heard that we were all laughing. We just thought it was hysterical. We go it's the right building.
Mark McGrath:Mary, you should know this too, that one of our earliest guests, who's a friend of the show and a collaborator with us at the time that he recorded with us episode eight. He was a two-star general, active duty in the air force and he had been the commander, uh, at fighter weapons school and and he had is nothing but positive things about your dad and we think it's the first time that ever there was an active duty air force general to say things positive to your dad. That's forever archived in the internet, uh, and of course that's tank I think general leaf was the other one generally he supported dad a lot was general leaf yes, general leaf, who went out to hawaii, I have to look at.
Mary Boyd:I think I know who you're talking about I think it was general leaf, I think yeah okay, actually I believe it's leaf. Yeah, I got it well but you're right, most.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:of them.
Mary Boyd:they didn't like it. Well, here was the other thing. I mean, you know, I'm not saying it's like that today, but at one point it was all bombers. Everything was about the bombing, that's right. Ted was everything but the bomb, so he was like the antithesis of everything they wanted. So, like I said, when they picked that building, you know, I think they thought they were dissing him. Actually, they didn't diss him. It was the perfect building, you know that's awesome.
Mark McGrath:That's like so many things, boyd, like you know, like the, like the critics I was just telling you.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:you know the in quotes, the critics that say well, like I read the bibliography, like you, literally just prove boyd, that's awesome.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, so, yeah, so, but yeah, that's true with that, it's always been that way, yeah so I just saw the picture of you from nullis air force base.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Uh boyd hall displays. Display receives renovation. Uh got building 118, so that's out there on the internet.
Mary Boyd:That's pretty cool and what do they call it other than boyd hall?
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:uh, let me go back to the one it's adversary, it's adversarial aggressor hall, or should be the aggressor. Um, let's see, I got right here from june 2013. I'll have to look it up real fast. Uh, yeah, is it the aggressors?
Mary Boyd:that's pretty sweet if it is yeah, I think it was, but they were. You know I was thinking about when they thought about you're either one or the other and they picked. I thought it was a perfect pick and I don't think they saw it that way, which is, to me, was the irony.
Mark McGrath:They didn't read, they didn't do the work, they didn't do the work. They didn't do the work. They never read the structure and creation.
Mary Boyd:I mean their dad's. Like I said, dad's hand was in so many nuts I don't know if it was in there and I think I did tell you, brian, my dad actually worked with NASA at one point when they were doing the simulators because they were training the pilots. They were having a terrible time making it work and it came to find out it was the blue, the bluing I guess they were using that was affecting the pilots and my dad helped them figure that out and I just want to say his bluing. I can't remember all of it. He worked with NASA on that and that was after he retired.
Mary Boyd:I mean, like I said, my dad's hands were all over the place, he was everywhere. He really was, you know.
Mark McGrath:Do you ever remember, in the early 80s, him talking about the Santa Fe Institute, speaking at the santa fe institute at all?
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:it might be in the later 90s, right uh earlier about the time he read yeah, so I I will at.
Mary Boyd:By that point dad was already down in florida so I didn't see him as much at that. See, I was still living here in virginia. So usually when Dad and I talked it was either by phone, and he used to always come up and visit me every summer and he would go and stop and brief at the Marine Corps Conoco and he'd visit all his friends. He'd come for like a month, two months and stay. Wow, you know it was a normal thing. Well, you know. The irony of it is. You know, a lot of times he was up visiting. I don't think people realize that he was doing all those briefings for the war too, in the wars and stuff.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, because that came out when Coram was talking about it and he says I'd heard this. And I said let me go get his phone book. And I opened it up and he goes oh my God, I'm like yeah, he's talking to everybody. Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, so for what it's worth, I mean that you know those little tidbits, you know. I mean I've only got one part of the picture and that's the thing about and here we go into orientation, you know, and our biases and all that other stuff. I only have a part of the picture.
Mary Boyd:yeah, everybody else has different parts of what they know you know right and as far as my dad going to georgia, tech and all that we did, kind of top of that, one of the reasons they went out that way was was because of my brother, you know, they wanted to be near warm springs, georgia. So that's one of the reasons why we came east coast. Now, as I told brian early on I think it's actually in the book my dad actually wanted to be. He got a degree in economics. He wanted to be a banker because he grew up poor, you know. I mean. So it made sense. But the other thing is he always had a love of flying and I think a lot of it came from was the Eckerds. You know Eckerd Drugstore. They actually are from Erie, pennsylvania.
Mary Boyd:And I think Eckerd took him up in his airplane and I think Eckhart took him up in his airplane and I think that's what started the whole thing.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yep, yeah, that's what, yeah, that's what Mark from here that's what Mark gave us? Yeah, same accounting, yeah, yeah.
Mark McGrath:Would he and I know he's a collegiate swimmer they swam at Iowa Would he swim.
Mary Boyd:He did water polo too. Oh, he played water polo?
Mark McGrath:Yes, he um. Would he swim water polo too? And did. Well, oh, he played water polo, did he said he played water polo, did he um? Did he swim for fitness?
Mary Boyd:uh, as an, you know, after his college years, as an adult, when you're growing up, or was that one of the things he would do or you know, I don't know. To be honest, I know he he exercised and stuff. I couldn't tell if he was going to the gym or he was going to, you know, a water sport. I mean, I know he loved water when he was younger and I don't think he ever lost the love of water. You know, I don't think he ever lost that. So I would assume he did probably do some swimming. I just don't remember it because I was little. A lot of it, you know. And then when he gets older, you know, as teenagers we're looking at other stuff, we're not paying attention, I hate to say it, it's all about me right, that's right so
Mark McGrath:you know, but yeah, that's the irony of it is I, you know I mean I mean I.
Mary Boyd:I never, always had a great relationship with my dad, but I could always say I always did admire him. I mean he stuck to his words and he did what he believed, and so many people cannot do that this day. So that is something that he has and will always have and nobody could take that away from him.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:That's actually. That's an amazing point right there. It goes back to be here to do right.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Exactly, and he lived it it's back to be or to do right Exactly, and he lived it Well, mary. Hey, we took up a lot of your time today or this morning. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'd love to have you back. You know so many other things we can look at. This is again just a conversation. I want to turn it over to you to see if you have any comments, questions, concerns about anything we're doing here or anything at all.
Mary Boyd:I like the idea of you doing the podcast. I like that you're teaching him. As I said to you, when you're doing the teaching, be sure that when you're doing the orientation, make sure you're pointing out people that they have their biases, because that's the only way they're going to get better at it. I have my own, I know I do it too, and it's something we all have to work on. And of course, as you said, a lot of people the reason they didn't like that is because they made them look at themselves and see the things they didn't like. But that's how you learn and I I just felt like with dad, you know, and then the end on it, he was always about learning and so you teaching his stuff and there are people being willing to learn. I think that's perfect. I'm totally up to that. I love it. And as far as the digitization of stuff, I'm okay with it if you know if it's going to be spread more to people and they're going to do it.
Mary Boyd:I have one tidbit I want you to know. I don't know if you all know that. You know dad's been studied by the chinese too. Say that again. I want to hear that. That.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:You know, dad's been studied by the Chinese too. Say that again. I want to hear that, yes. Say that again, loud and clear.
Mary Boyd:Dad has been studied by the Chinese and if you don't believe, I have a friend that was from China. I'm not going to name any names that told me, yes, he studied.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah.
Mark McGrath:We had GI Wilson on the show who worked closely with your dad and and helped with the integration to the marine corps and and he had uh wrote the article the changing face of war with mike wiley and bill land. Also collaborates with your father, and what was ironic about that article is that number one it was published the month before the berlin wall fell, so basically everything they were talking about, following what your dad was saying, the Berlin Wall fell the next month. But also, too, that the famous Chinese white paper Unrestricted Warfare is that the authors of that had read it as well, and it traces right back to having a solid understanding of Sun Tzu Boyd. And here we are.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, I imagine all our adversaries all know dad stuff. They would be a fool not to. Well, Mary, we say that they won't, but yeah.
Mark McGrath:Ponch and I say this all the time, it's one of our tags on the podcast when it closes out is like you need to do this stuff before your competitors do. You need to learn this stuff before your competitors do. You need to learn this stuff before your competitors do, because if your competitors understand destruction and creation and you don't, you're going to be defeated, and you're going to be defeated handily, and you'll never know what hit you. That's the other thing. You'll never know what happened. So for you to say that and bring that up is crucial.
Mary Boyd:I really appreciate that.
Mark McGrath:Well, I'm glad to have been there to talk to you is crucial.
Mary Boyd:I really appreciate that. Well, I'm glad to have been there to talk to you. I probably have a lot more antidotes, but it's just hard to remember them all I do. I think there's actually a letter attached to that picture that was from Paramount. If you want me to take a look at that, I've got it hanging up on the wall. Hold on a minute.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Oh, you do, Okay, okay.
Mary Boyd:Here.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Just to show you there's the picture.
Mark McGrath:Let's see, it's coming in. Yep, I see it.
Mary Boyd:Oh wow, yeah, unbelievable paramount studios 592 uh may 92 star trek set. I think there's. I put a letter in here. I think inside of it. Let me see, I think I have letter in here. I think inside of it. Let me see, I think I have it in here.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Is it in here? I'll open it up. Hold on a minute. Paramount made the movie Top Gun 2, right Maverick? Oh, yes, they did.
Mark McGrath:And Godfather, I think Patton too. Weren't we talking about Patton earlier? Maybe yeah.
Mary Boyd:Well yeah, I put the letter in here with it so it wouldn't get lost. Hold on a minute.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, no, take your time, we're fine. I want to hear this. This is great.
Mark McGrath:Well, I think it also drives the point that applicability of void it's industry sector discipline agnostic, Absolutely. It involves where humans are making decisions. What does it say?
Mary Boyd:I have no idea who. Oh, here it is, it's George. Oh God, I don't have my glasses on Hold on a minute. Yeah, that's the thing about getting old man. You got to have an extra set of eyes.
Mark McGrath:Well, that's okay.
Mary Boyd:Hold on a minute. Here it says John, a very Merry Christmas and the best New Year's to you and your family. Now I guess we see why we delayed the pictures. Very best, george and Barbara. And it's Honchar Productions. George B, honchar Productions.
Mark McGrath:How do you spell Honchar?
Mary Boyd:H-O-N-C-H-A-R.
Mark McGrath:Okay, I got you Get that up, awesome yeah.
Mary Boyd:That was what I was doing. It was on the back of the picture.
Mark McGrath:Very cool.
Mary Boyd:So I just put it back in there so it wouldn't get messed up. I kept it with the picture. So there's a little context for you. Like I said, my dad, he was with everybody. Like I said, if you were willing to listen, he was willing to breathe. But it was a 12-hour, not a one-hour edition.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Yeah, it's hard to reduce this down to 30 minutes a table you can't.
Mary Boyd:That's like taking that little picture, like he said. You know you can't. There's just too much involved in it.
Mark McGrath:Full brief or no brief? Exactly, Exactly.
Brian "Ponch" Rivera:Mary again. Hey, thanks for, uh, you know everything you're doing here today and your day-to-day life as well. Thrilled that you're here sharing some insights with us. We'll have you back, of course, and then every time we get up to Northern Virginia, uh, we'll, we'll try to stop by, we'll have a cup of coffee.
Mark McGrath:Yeah, absolutely, there's always something to talking about when it comes to my father. No, I really appreciate it, mary, and we're glad that our audience can hear these stories and improve their capacity for free and independent action.
Mary Boyd:Yeah, good, all right, thank you.
