Constraints-Led Approach, Basketball, and the OODA Loop | George Vaz

George Vaz of Transforming Basketball joins Ponch to explain the Constraints-Led Approach that is reshaping player development from the WNBA's Portland Fire down to the youth level.

Alex Sarama, the Fire's head coach and the WNBA's Coach of the Month for May, built his staff and his system around the CLA. George, a co-author of A Constraints-Led Approach to Coaching Basketball, breaks down why the approach is not new, why complicated terminology kept it off the court for decades, and how his team translated ideas like perception-action coupling into basketball language players can use.

Ponch maps it all onto familiar ground: John Boyd's OODA loop, mission command, and Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's flow channel. Together they cover why training should be harder than the game, how rate limiters and the 70/30 challenge point keep every player learning, the shot spectrum of gold, silver, and bronze, the dominoes principles of spacing and quick decisions, and why European coach education keeps producing players who catch up fast.

The through line is one every leader in sport, finance, or the military will recognize. Build the environment, let the game do the teaching, and develop your people instead of just collecting them.

Learn more about George and the team at transformingbball.com.

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Transcript

Intro: George Vaz, Transforming Basketball, and Alex Sarama's Portland Fire

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 0:20

Well, I'm here with George Voz. Am I saying that correct? Exactly. Yeah. All right. George is with transforming basketball. Uh, for those of you who are not familiar, constraints-led approach is growing in popularity. It's growing in the NBA. And uh actually, you know somebody in the WNBA who is uh leading this charge. Can you tell us a little bit about that connection and how you got involved with transforming basketball?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Yeah, Alex Sarama is the head coach of the Portland Fire, and he's, you know, the first head coach to, I guess, you know, well, I guess Kenny Atkinson really went all in with the CLA last season with the Cleveland Cavaliers, and that's where Alex was director of player development. And then he spent two seasons there, you know, so the a couple years ago when Alex went there. But now Alex is in the whole department is using the CLA. So it's, you know, everything from performance staff to analytics, um, you know, to to even like I guess the nutrition, how they're eating. So like the whole Portland fire is using the CLA, and you know, it's because of what Alex is bringing into it. So I, you know, I met Alex three, four years ago now, and he was one of my mentors on a coaching program I did while I was living in Slovenia. And uh, he was a, you know, and he that's when he first introduced the CLA to me. And I was like, you know, what's this? And he was like, it doesn't matter how you pass the ball, as you know, what's more important is that the ball gets from point A to point B. And I was like, Yeah, but what about it, you know, you need to add this the back spin to it so the player catches it and you know, with the seams and things like that. And uh it was interesting because it was the first time I got my mind opened up to you know these ideas. And, you know, I you know, I'm sure every coach can is on the same page when I say, you know, it was traditional three-man weaves, we're doing static ball handling on air. And then it's the first time where I'm like, whoa, well, there's a different way to do this. And then you start digging into the research, Brian, and it's you know, you're seeing the this has it's not new, right? It's nothing that he's just kind of like, oh yeah, I'm starting this new, this new fad. No, the research has been around for decades. And um, and and so, you know, and that that's how I kind of came into it all.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 2:23

So this is great. Let's build on that some more. So can you you brought up that CLA constraints-led

The CLA isn't new: decades of research, finally on the court

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 2:28

approach isn't anything new, and I I agree with you there. From my background, when I read the constraints-led approach principles for sports sport sports coaching and practice design, I think it came out about eight or nine years ago. It was handed to me at an event, uh, I think with the Navy, actually, uh Complexity Theory event. And I looked into that and I actually had an event up in Whistler with Dave Snowden's group, Kinevin, and I met some folks up there that were reading the same book. What I did is I'm like, this is nothing new to me, but I'm glad somebody wrote this. And having a background in fighter aviation and mission command and understanding that, I'm like, yeah, this is great. This should work. And clearly every coach in the world already knows how to do this. So I that was my position eight years ago and maybe up to about two years ago, that I thought every coach in the world knew how to do this. And then I had a long conversation with Sue Enquist on the podcast. She's the uh, I think the winningest NCAA coach in softball.

unknown 3:18

Yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 3:19

And she pointed out that, you know, Brian, anybody can become a coach, right? They can just sign up and go off and be a coach, and there's no training for that. And recently I looked into training requirements in Europe and training requirements here in the US, and they're quite different. In Europe, it's more about the principal approach to coaching. And the US, sometimes it's about safety, right? Sometimes they talk about concussions and and things like that, but they don't talk about how you actually bring first principle approaches to coaching into your organization. So there's a big gap there. And I just want to share that with you that and our listeners that this is not new. But what's surprising about this, when you find out the age of Alex Sarama, uh, and you find out eight years ago, he was what, 22, 23? Yeah, yeah, yeah. When that book came out, and he's now the head coach of the WNBA Portland Fire. He was coach of the month, and right now he's been mentioned to be coach of the year uh based on the current path they're on.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

In the conversation, yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 4:15

And he's in and in my opinion, he's a he's an outsider of basketball. Uh can you t elaborate on that some more? Where am I right? Where am I wrong? Uh anything strike a chord with him?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, no, for sure. I think, you know, firstly, Alex Sarama coaching savant for sure. You know, even though I I think it's always like, you know, he maybe he's a young person, but he's an old coach, he's an experienced coach, you know, he's been doing it for 15

Why so few coaches adopted it: the terminology problem

SPEAKER_02 4:36

plus years. So you, you know, you there's a lot of professional coaches in the NBA, and you know, in the WNBA, who don't have that kind of experience. So I think that's the first thing when, you know, you talk about maybe his youth. There's no inexperience there. But uh what I what I do want to say and and uh talk about is like the terminology with the CLA that you kind of mentioned, you know, and it's been around for ages. I guess the main thing, Brian, is that like why haven't more people adopted it? Why isn't it it more available? Why, you know, why isn't everyone doing it if it's been around for so long? And I think the biggest constraint that kind of limits, you know, the the theory from the practice to the court is the fact that the terminology is so complicated. And, you know, sometimes you're you know, game representative, rich learning environments, an affordance. And then, you know, if for an app, you know, a coach, I know when I first looked at it, I was like, I'd like, what is this stuff? I, you know, I do not care about an affordance, what is perception action coupling? So it's just like it, you know, it's hard to grasp the language, first of all. And I think one of the coolest things that Alex has done, the transforming basketball is doing, is we're taking these complex ideas and really making it into the you know specific basketball uh terminology, right? And and then we're we're creating these principles of play where it's like the term for perception action coupling, you know, and we're just linking it to what we're players are seeing on the court and what they're doing on the court. And and I think that's the biggest kind of, you know, why this thing is getting pushed now, you know, more and more forward is because now you're having so many people, so many, uh, you know, Rob Gray, you spoke about David Epstein, that now they're writing in a way that's easily accessible to a lot more people, a lot more of coaches, and in a way that's less complicating, less confusing, less um, you know, academic terminology.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 6:21

Well, I think there's something we need to bring up, and that is most coaches intuitively know how to do this. They already do some of the things that are in there. And uh, you know, I take my daughters to uh a trainer down the street about four miles away. Uh, he's been on the show, we've talked about his training approach, and it's very similar

Start with the why and the what, let players find the how

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 6:37

to what uh we see in CLA, but he doesn't understand the language of CLA, and that's okay, that's fine. As long as you understand that there is that coupling, those affordances, and uh you know, one thing I talk to his coaches about is if you start with the why and the what, the kids will figure out the how. If you got if you start there and kind of go, here's why we're doing this and what you need to be paying attention to, or maybe what what it is we're trying to accomplish, yeah. Let the girls figure out how to do that and then uh do some good debriefing there. So to be clear here, and to be fair, can I interject real quickly with that?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

And it's it's also like as a coach, you don't necessarily need to have all the answers where it's like, let's build this environment, see what problems come out of this environment, and then you know, that's what that's where you start to learn. Well, why why aren't the the players able to make you know zero second decisions is what we call them. I guess the Spurs used to call it 0.5 decision making. It's like, why aren't the players able to make you know these quick decisions in this game? Well, maybe there's not enough space for them to drive, and now they're having to hold the ball. So, you know, by making these environments, you also learn with the players, you know, what like what actually needs to happen, what kind of constraints you need to put in so that it's you know, so the these skills are able to emerge.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 7:50

No, agree there. The the thing that I saw and the question I asked years ago to the trainers was simple. It was at what point do we see what they learn in this training applied to the court? And this is my view a few years ago, like you guys know what you're doing, you should have an answer to this. That's the wrong question to ask. I think the better question would

Train harder than the game: a fighter aviation parallel

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 8:11

be why isn't the why isn't the training that you're doing replicate what they're gonna see in the game? Right. And I think that's that's going back to my background in fighter aviation, we have a saying, and I'm I might get this it might be a little off, but combat flying in combat is not as hard as flying in Fallon when we do our our big scale exercises. That is very complicated, it's painful, it it it's it you get these long debriefs, it's it's hard flying. Then you get into a combat zone, you're like, well, that was easy, right? So so think about this in a game. When you're playing a basketball game, the training you did should be, in my opinion, should be more challenging than the game itself. Is that correct? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 8:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

And and I don't think it is, right? And and I think that's the challenge. Is I'm curious with the with the fighter, when you're flying in combat, it's like, do you how do you prepare the fighters uh or the the the pilots to, you know, to they're gonna be, I guess in combat, it's gonna be some some level of danger. How do you prepare them for that kind of environment? Because it and I think that's the challenge with basketball coaches. It's hard to replicate the game because obviously the game is completely different to practice. The game has, you know, people are watching. There's uh there's there's of course, you know, the players are more hyped up, there's more anticipation for it. You show up earlier, uh, there's a warm-up time. Whereas in practice, you're trying to fit everything in, there's no one watching, you're you're giving feedback constantly as a coach in you know the more traditional environment. So there's so many key distinctions, but to your point, it's all about how can we replicate the game or you know, slices of the game as much as possible to learn. So I've just been curious how you would do that with the pilots.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 9:49

Yeah, yeah. So this is interesting. I had to think about this if there's an overlap there. And the answer is yes. So what we would do, then I'll just use a 1v1 basic fighter maneuver. So going out here of Oceana, taking off, going to the whiskey areas, and you're gonna set up in different sets, right? Three, uh, three quarters of a mile, you're gonna set up half mile, you're gonna set up a mile apart, a mile and a half apart. And that gives you different aspects, different ways to look at your environment, your your enemy, your your opponent. And then uh they'll also put affordances on the uh, or excuse me, constraints on the uh red air, and they'll say, hey, they're gonna be a max uh 5G aircraft, they're gonna, they're gonna replicate a third generation aircraft, they're gonna replicate a fourth generation aircraft or a fifth generation aircraft. So we put constraints on what that red air does, and they show us that enemy in the air. And then we, of course, we have to come back and do thorough debriefs, which is part of, I believe, CLA, which is really understanding what happened from multiple perspectives. And and that's how we do it. See, we do put constraints in each flight. Hey, we're not gonna do this, we're gonna do that, we're gonna do these things, we're gonna get focused on this part only. And I had to think about that. We naturally did that, but we didn't call it constraints-led approach. It's it's part of mission command, right? Yeah. It's and and mission command is really the same thing as CLA, in my opinion, and that's developing teams, uh showing intent, self-organizing teams and things like that. So but I I definitely want to go deeper into that as a talking to myself.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yeah, again, before we move on, it's it's fascinating. And I think from the from a coaching perspective, for me, you talk about, you know, some some coaches use the CLA already, and they don't maybe they don't, they're not aware that they're using it, but they're adding these different constraints. I think the one key difference when you kind of adopt a you know, let's say ecological dynamics methodology, and it's it's the fact that you're doing this with intention. So let's say a particular in your example, you have a particular

Rate limiters and designing constraints with intention

SPEAKER_02 11:37

pilot who maybe doesn't do so well against, you know, third generation, and another one that doesn't do so well against fifth generation aircrafts. So now it's like our job as coaches is taking this into account, and we call these these rate limiters, right? So these are the, I guess, the bottlenecks that's that's stopping them from being able to execute to be better against you know third generation in the basketball terms, it's like maybe a player can't handle full court pressure, right? They struggle handling the basketball versus you know pressure in the full court. So then, you know, we look at these specific rate limiters, we design the games, the small-sided games, we put them inside of it, and then we manipulate the constraints to help them get better. And then, you know, I you know, uh, I answer a lot of the questions with on transforming basketball social media, and uh, you know, a lot of the things that we do is is really park back at some of the kind of what we've all been doing as coaches. Like we've always been on air training, right? But why? Right? So we you really have to ask yourself why. So it's so it's the question is like, oh, but you have to teach the fundamentals before you can let the players play, right? It's always, but why? Like, not necessarily. The research tells us that's not true. But what you do have to do is simplify it to a point, the small-sided game, to a point where the learning can occur at an optimal challenge point. And I think our our our roles as coaches is to find this optimal challenge point so that the players can be in a flow state while they're learning, because if it's too hard, they're gonna get discouraged. And if it's too easy, they'll get bored. So you have to find that, you know, that sweet spot of learning. And then you have to manipulate constraints to really get them to explore different skills, different ways to protect the ball in that same example, full court pressure, different ways to create space for themselves so they can pass over the defense, different ways that they could maybe uh get around the defense, you know. So you you you just have to see what a particular player struggles with, and then you have to design the constraints accordingly. And I think that's the key distinction when you're you know using the CLA to its like max capacity is like the intentionality behind it versus doing it and you maybe you're constraining, but it's it's not related to a player's rate limiters or it's not related to your principles of play. Like it's still great, but maybe it's not, you know, max capacity.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 13:48

So so we just went uh Saturn V there and start using a lot of big words, including flow and and challenge, and and I think uh so let's unpack this a little bit. So so what I want to do is take the uh your model of the constraint sled approach, which is in your book, which is in Alex's book. I'm gonna move that into what is known as Observer Orient Decide Act to the OODA loop, and then I'm gonna show that in Mihai Chiksen Mihai's uh challenge uh skills balance, which shows a flow channel. And that way we can unpack this a little bit more. That, hey, what we're talking about here is really how an agent, a living agent or an individual team member, adapts to a changing world and what you're supposed to do as a coach to help

The OODA loop, Newell's constraints model, and the flow channel

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 14:27

them move that along, right? That's what we did in fighter aviation. We don't start with a fifth generation fight, we don't start with a uh, you know, a 4v20. Uh, we start a little bit smaller and we we learn the the basics, the basic skills as you build up, which includes you know how to how to be a good wingman, uh, even though you don't know how to pass the ball, use that analogy. You can still be a good wingman, you can still play good defense, but you may not be the best defender at the time. You may not have the best skills, but you're gonna be fit for the environment and you're gonna be part of the team early. So if you don't mind, I'm gonna share the video. Uh I'll play it for you, and then uh we'll talk about it here. Okay, hopefully, it's plain. So this is your uh what's in your uh transforming basketball, uh, and we're gonna move this into the what is known as Observer Orient Decide Act. So here's Newell's constraints model from 1986. Uh, and this has your language from transforming basketball in there individual orient, excuse me, environment and task. Well, we're gonna move this into the OODA loop here in a second. So here's your triangle, uh, here's your perception action loop.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

You see and you do, and then you you after what you do, you see again and you do again. Yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 16:32

Yeah. So one of the key things here is perception is internal to the agent, which we can talk about maybe a little bit later on. And then what we get out of this uh in unfolding and interaction with the environment are skills. Now, within the OODA loop, this is what it looks like. It's already there perception, skills, action, and the external environment, uh, the constraints of the environment created by agents or actants. And we don't have to get into that either. But what this what happens now is we take that implicit guidance to control those skills that we're trying to develop and we compare them to the external environment, which includes outside information, unfolding circumstances. That's a challenge of the environment. This is the challenge skills balance balance that Mihai Chi Sen Miha gave us and the concept of flow. And you brought this up. Your job as a coach is if you have low skills on the on the bottom there, you don't create this high, very challenging environment. You're gonna you're gonna make a lot of stress and anxiety for your player. Instead, you you find the environment that's fit for the context or the person and you move them up the channel if you can. And that's what you're gonna do as a coach.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, and it could be as simple as like changing the players who the players play against each other at practice. You know, that you know, let's say you've got a big team and it's 15 players, and the top three are really good, and the bottom three maybe aren't as good. So maybe you pair them, you know, sparingly with each other, but then most of the time they're playing with the the players that are, you know, that match up better against them. And then all of a sudden the the less skilled players are still getting finding that flow channel because they're able to find that competition against each other, and the better skilled players are find that competition. So it's you know, it could be something as simple as that. And then obviously you do have other constraints. You could add time, score, advantage starts, you know, some some that we looked at in in the in the infographic there video.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 18:19

Right. And they those end up being the challenge that they're they're competing against on the left side. I do want to bring up something here. So when you have really skilled players on a basketball team and you don't create the environment for them where they are challenged, they're in that boredom relaxation z zone during practice and they hate it, right? And I think in the book, uh you guys talk about one of the great outcomes of CLA is participation. You you get to keep kids involved. And I want to talk about kids because it's important. Very few people are talking about this at the middle school and high school level here in the US. But that's what we want to really target in this conversation is how do we bring them along? Because this is not just for the NBA or WNBA. This is how all people learn, right? This is this is applicable everywhere. So can you talk a little bit about that type of outcome and and making sure that your skilled players, if you want to call them that, uh stay involved and the and your non-skilled

Keeping skilled and new players in the flow channel

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 19:13

players, the ones that are newer to the game, how they stay involved in in the practice?

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, I'll give you one quick example, and then I do want to talk about the you know, the kids, right? The the importance of uh the benefits of using the CLA, especially with you in the youth environment. But um, like the first thing could be like say you have you know a really skilled player or two or three players in the game, and you're doing, you know, maybe you're doing a one-on-one advantage start uh finishing, where it's like ball on the back, and then as soon as they lift the ball to attack, they have to score a layup. With your more skilled players, you could do some simple constraints. We call them individual constraints, and it could simply be you can't use the backboard where you when you finish. Or or you, you know, you can't grab the ball of two hands before you finish. So you have to dribble and then already cuff the ball and and finish with one hand, or you can't go underhand layup, or you only have one dribble to get to the basket. So there's lots of different constraints that you can add to to challenge that player, even though they're in maybe in their environment where their peers aren't as good as them, right? And and it's the same thing for for less skilled players. Let's say you have, you know, that's maybe a player or two that just, you know, they're new to basketball. They you still want to make sure they have fun and they're in that flow state. And you know, simple constraints is maybe they have a bigger advantage. It could be something as simple instead of the ball being on the back, the ball is lifted off the back just behind. So that way the offense doesn't know when the defense or the defense doesn't know when the offense is going, or they could just start in front, the defense behind, and you know, as soon as they move, it's live. So giving them a bigger advantage, maybe maybe scoring them differently as well. I know in Brazil, when I when I grew up, we um it's funny because we use constraints as children playing, right? During free play, and we used to call it coffee with milk. And it whoever was coffee with milk, the rules didn't apply to them. So, you know, it's just finding different ways, and and the whole point of this is like you st like if we're playing tag games, and um, you know, you never want to tag the really small kids because they're not gonna be able to tag anybody else, but they could still play in the game. So we called them coffee with milk, they could still play, they could run around, and if they get tagged, they wouldn't be it, but they could still keep playing, right? So it's um it's the same thing. So but you just have to find the constraints to make it to find that flow state for you.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 21:22

So let's break this down a little bit more because I haven't heard this uh explain the way you just did. So we're it let's say we're doing a 4v4 or a small sided game of 3v3 or 4 and 4. You can actually put individual constraints on individual players for that, right? Is that that's what you're saying? So it doesn't have to be, hey, it's only two dribbles to the basket from whatever. It could be you only get one dribble, you only get one dribble, and you can do what you need to do, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And I and I'd even go a step further, but this this is getting more into like, you know, basketball tactics and strategy side of it. And it's you know, you can assign roles to specific players. So, you know, when you're doing individual skill development, where it's one-on-one, two-on-one, two-on-twos, I think it's important for every player, especially in youth development, so that they can experiment with, you know, handling the ball and and creating advantages and you know, and finishing at the basket. But when you get into like more team concepts, you can assign roles. And the way we we kind of do it at Transforming Basketball, we have like your targets, your pickers, and your converters. So your target players are your main, your primary ball handlers. They're responsible for creating the advantages

Individual constraints and roles: targets, pickers, converters

SPEAKER_02 22:25

for themselves or for their teammates. The pickers or you know, connectors, I think is a good word uh that I've been using recently. But it's these are the guys or the girls that are gonna set the pick and they're gonna help the targets create the advantage. So it could either be a pick on the ball or a screen off the ball. And then you have your converters, and these are the players responsible to convert the dominoes once they grab the ball. So, you know, going back to maybe a player isn't as skilled, the the individual constraint is that they can't trigger dominoes. So they're they're they're not allowed to initiate the trigger. So they have to be in a specific space on the court where they're going to be catching the ball in a domino situation and they have to play with dominoes rules. Zero second decisions, floor is lava, one can't guard two. And then it's you know, really it makes the game really easy for them because as soon as they catch it, they have to shoot driver pass, and and it's as simple as that. And they're only Job is to not lose dominoes. As long as they take a gold medal or a silver medal shot, a shot that's in the team's shot spectrum, you know, they catch and play with that. And it's as simple as that. Whereas the targets and the pickers, they're more involved in the actual creation of the dominoes. So that's a way to, you know, individualize the constraints as well by assigning those roles.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 23:37

So when you're talking about roles in basketball, you're not talking about one, two, three, four, five. You're talking about what the am I right?

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Is is you know, it it's it's it's interesting because you know, I guess most of the time your ones are gonna be your targets, and then your twos and threes are gonna be your converters, and then your fours and fives are gonna be your pickers, but you know, it it not necessarily. So it's you know, it could vary just depending on your team. But the the main thing is that you have you cut these three distinct positions or roles on the floor for them to play out of.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 24:08

Wow, this is amazing. Uh, I do want to talk about conceptual offense and uh what that looks like as well. Uh can you can you So one of the challenges I have in watching my girls play basketball is this is the coach will yell out a play. They could be, you know, they could have the advantage going up court uh and they'll slow down to call a play while the defense still has their back towards them, right? And they just gave up that advantage. And now they're looking for a set play to find another advantage. And I'm like, you just gave one up. You just you just gave it up. So can you walk us through what one the conceptual spiral, excuse me, a conceptual offense looks like and why plays aren't necessarily needed often or all the time.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah, I think the most important thing is that you have principles, and the principles are are gonna they're what's gonna guide your players into the behaviors you want to see on the court. So, you know, I took spoke about gold medal and silver medals, and that's just our you know shot spectrum that we use to transform in basketball. So a gold medal is your highest value shots, typically layups, free throws, dunks, and then your silver medals are your second highest value shots, just like in the Olympic, you know, the medal system. You have your catch and shoot threes, maybe depending on the player, you know, you can individualize the shot spectrum

Conceptual offense vs set plays: don't give up the advantage

SPEAKER_02 25:17

and what as well. And then you have your bronze medal shots, which are off the dribble threes or non-rim paint uh twos.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 25:23

So you you know you package. But let's put that down again because I want to make sure this is clear for the kids that are listening. Gold medals are gonna be layups, right? Yeah. The things that you're gonna get fouled on.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah, and and you know, high value shots. You know, a layup is an easy shot. Anyone can make a layup.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 25:38

All right. Silver shots, let me give it, let me try one. So one of my daughters likes hitting uh threes from the corner, uh kind of in motion, like so you know. Yeah, uh that's exactly okay. So not off a dribble, but just off a good swinging into it and shot, right? Yep. Okay, exactly. And then the bronze ones are gonna be those like two feet in from the three-point line off a dribble.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

See, I I wouldn't see for me personally,

The shot spectrum: gold, silver, bronze

SPEAKER_02 26:00

I would that's not even doesn't even exist in my shot spectrum. The the bronze medal shots, they're still good shots. Like who who's at the Olympics winning a bronze medal, not happy about it? So, you know, the bronze medals to me are off the dribble threes, non-rim paint twos. So to me, they're still important shots for players to learn. But and then the mid-range paint twos, you know, two dribbles in, those are the shots we don't want at all. Like if, you know, another analogy we use is like 10 metal. So like they're not worth anything, right?

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 26:27

Yeah. So you're trying to build like this heuristic in the kids' minds, this rule of thumb that when they're playing, that they're looking for the better shot, not the better shooter. Am I am I getting that right?

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah, so the the you know, the players, they're these and this principle, the shot selection principle is such an important one. I think honestly, I really feel like if every coach adopted a shot spectrum to their team's needs, because obviously every team is made up of different players' abilities. So it's very important that not, you know, not the one that I mentioned is gonna fit every team. So it's important that coaches realize that. But if everyone had a a shot spectrum and they played to that, it'd be so much better because then players, instead of, you know, to your point, maybe the converter catches the ball in dominoes, takes two dribbles and is stopped, right? So we're back to neutral. But we have 15 seconds on the shot clock. So it's, you know, do we want to take a mid-range contested shot or do we want to maybe pass it back out and re-trigger to find a better shot? So then these principles are gonna help them make decisions in the game, in the chaos of the game.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 27:27

Okay, so as a as as a kid is taking a or given an opportunity for a bronze shot, they probably ought to be looking for a silver shot, meaning passing the ball or somebody else who's cutting to get that uh gold shot.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

Yeah, and I mean for me personally as a coach, and I guess it g it goes back again, you know, it's not necessarily about, you know, this is this is one way to do it. This is a framework. So as a coach, you could, you know, you could for me, uh if a player has a a Rob shot, so we call it rhythm open balance ROB, if they have a Rob shot at at any point of the shot clock, whether it's gold, silver, or bronze, for me personally, I'm okay with them shooting it. But maybe different coaches only want a gold medal within you know the first five seconds, or maybe different coaches want just a gold and silver medal. But for me, as long as it's a robbed shot and it's in there, it's in rhythm, it's in there, they have balance and they're open, then you know, let's let's do it and let's crash the boards and and let's get something out of it.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 28:26

Okay, so when you're running a clinic and you show the uh gold, silver, and bronze heuristics, you also tell the coaches that, hey, you need to make this fit for your team, meaning there's no one size fits all. You need to understand your players and they need to understand their their shot capabilities as well, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Yeah, every sport, I think every sport there exists certain principles that can be applied in you know in any level of of the game. But then but then other principles are gonna be, you know, more specific to the players that you have. So in basketball, for example, dominoes principles, I think you can you can at any level of basketball, dominoes principles are gonna exist, and it's basically how do you play when an advantage already exists on the floor? And um, you know, mention it briefly, but it's zero second decisions. You want to shoot driver pass in one second or less, one can't guard two, you want to be in spacing on the floor where one defender can't guard two offensive players, and then floor is lava, which is basically you know, you can't catch inside the three-point line, and that's just to stretch the defense as much as possible. So those I think those principles are quite universal. But other principles, like say, for example, you know, the shot selection or maybe how you're gonna create at the advantage, the dominoes, they're they can be different to your specific personnel. Maybe it's you know, if if it's an under-10 team, it doesn't make sense to create dominoes with a pick and roll or uh, you know, these elaborate

Dominoes: zero-second decisions, one can't guard two, floor is lava

SPEAKER_02 29:46

sets. But if it's under if it's an under-18 team or professional team, then it makes a lot of sense for you to add more players into the trigger to uh confuse or disorientate the defense. So it's just, you know, there's some universal principles and then there's you know principles that fit best for your team. And it's important for coaches to to not copy and paste, but you know, think think creatively about about that.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 30:10

So I want to I just thought about something years ago, going back 30, 40 years ago in fighter aviation, we used to fly, they called it fingertip four, right? And you're basically flying four aircraft next to each other and and trying to do offensive, defensive things. The problem with that is you're all in one space, right? So what we came up with was offensive and and defensive combat spread. So we would spread out and be almost miles apart from each other, and that give us mutual support. So the same thing has to happen on the court, is you want to create as much spread as possible because it makes a problem for the defenders.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yes.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 30:43

Is that it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

No, as brilliantly said, that's a great example. It's it's like the you know, the reason why the modern basketball, why the offense is soaring, you know, record numbers every single year is getting better and better, isn't because players are becoming better shooters. You know, that's part of the reason as well. But the the main reason is that the defense has to guard more space on the court, leaving the highest value shot unguarded more times, you know, for m for a bigger chunk of the game.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 31:13

So the moment you start putting somebody down low in the post or many people down there, what you in my opinion, all you did was make the defense lives easier. Yeah, and and the highest value shot as being guarded, you know, if there's someone if it's someone there. Yeah. So if if the objective is to disorient the defenders or create mismatches, start by spreading out your offense, and

Spacing and spread: the combat spread parallel

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 31:32

that's the uh uh floor's lava. No was it, would you say no cat no passing inside the no catching inside the three-point line. Okay, and that forces you to spread. And then if I understand the conceptual offense, and I say conceptual spiral from time to time because that's one of the briefs that John Boyd came up with, which I think is awesome. But the idea is to allow your players to attack based off the affordances, what the defenders are showing you. Right? Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Okay. That's exactly it's spot on, spot on.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 32:03

And then if I remember correctly and and watching, and I'm not just to make clear for everybody, I don't coach basketball, I don't play basketball, my girls do, but I I think it's fascinating because it looks like combat to me. Uh, and it looks like life. And by the way, we've had professors come on here to talk about life as basketball, and there's a lot of great lessons you can learn. You can't hide in basketball. Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Yeah, sports is great. It gives it gives the play. And we've had this conversation on, you know, our podcast. It's like sports is a great place for players to or for people to go and make mistakes and and you know, be in a position where they can learn from the mistakes and become better because of those mistakes. Whereas in life, sometimes you make mistakes and it, you know, maybe you you you get hurt or you know, you hurt other people. So it's you know, sports is just such a a great space for kids to play and learn in a you know safe environment where there's not so much pressure. And and I think that's why it's you know, going back, and you know we didn't touch on it, but I'd like to just mention briefly it's like the CLA for youth development. And you know, I speak to it with a lot of coaches, and some coaches are you know, they they just don't like the CLA for for different reasons, and you know it's a threat to them, it's a it's an ego thing. Yeah, yeah, you know, absolutely, you know, yeah, I I have my opinions. Everyone's entitled to theirs, absolutely fine. But I and and I think a lot of their reasoning comes from the fact that it's not the best way to teach skills, right? And again, you know, maybe it is an ego thing because it's something you know, maybe the way that they've been doing it, they've been doing it for years and decades. And it's hard to say, oh, I've been doing it wrong, and not necessarily wrong, but it's hard to say I've been there's a better way to do it now after so many years. But what I will say is that I don't think any one of these coaches can argue with the fact that using the CLA will instantly make practice more enjoyable for kids. And then that in turn get gets you know more participation, gets kids coming back and playing the sport. And that's what we want as kids. It's you know, it's not about how many, how, you know, how many games you win or how many championships you win, but how many of your players come back to keep playing the game year after year. And I think that's the most important stat as a coach.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 34:03

Well, let's build on this because I think there's uh a lot of we want to unpack on the ego conversation, uh, coaches doing this, and then your skills. So imagine uh you have a very skilled player. And I I'll say this my my girls are pretty skilled at uh the basics, right? But when it comes to performance on the court, it's not there. Or sometimes, sometimes, right? It it it is taking more time. So that that gap between their skill k their skills,

Sport as a safe place to fail, and the CLA for youth

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 34:27

that stuff that they look good at when they're spinning to the basket and shooting and doing that when they're doing one v0 playing by themselves, you're not seeing that translate to a game. Yes. So what so I want to go back to your point there. What's more important to you as a coach, right? Is it is it that skills development or how they perform in the game?

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yeah, I think uh well, I think both are important actually. But the the way I view it is you don't have skill, it it's not you don't isolate skill development from the game. Right. And I think that's the key difference. You you when you're doing skill development, you're still doing it so perception, action, coupling are there. So players are still having to see a defender and then make a decision based on it. So it's like teaching ball handling. A lot of the times it's always stationary ball handling, and you know, you're having to repeat the same dribble moves and coaches yelling, go faster. You're you don't you don't learn unless you're making mistakes. And you know, it's not saying that that won't make you better, but that's not how the game is played. That has nothing to do with, you know, a defender coming at you full speed and trapping you. So it's like, why don't we take those same that same activity where they're dribbling on air and then add a defender and then

Ego, fundamentals, and the 70/30 challenge point

SPEAKER_02 35:30

put them inside a small space? So you're adding constraints then and there. You're adding a defender, you're adding the space. And now you're asking the players, maybe they can even do the same dribble moves or they can just escape the defender. But either way, they're now you're asking them to, you know, evade, you're asking them to see with the defender, you're asking them to keep their eyes up all just by placing them in a game and giving no feedback whatsoever, letting the game do the feedback. So skill development is super important. But now I I guess I guess I want to talk a little bit about the representative dial. And it's like it's not just about putting player, you know, it's so let if if we say skill is one on zero or two or one on one, two on one, two on two, it's not necessarily the game isn't just put players in five on five and and then constrain it from there. No, you can still do two on two, three on three, three on three plus one, four on four, whatever, and and add the constraints because what you're doing when you're removing the defenders is you're simplifying the task. And the reason we do this is to not overload the working memory capacity of the players. So if we can simplify the task, we can we can remove the affordances, which is basically an opportunity for action. So if there's five players in the court and maybe we're asking a player to drive baseline, that gap defender might shrink the floor and might steal the ball. But if we remove that defender from from there and the offensive player and we make it four on four and they drive, they don't have to worry about that. So now we can actually work on what we actually want to work on, which is uh shoot or pass decisions when when the player gets to the rim. So they get to the rim and now they can make the pass and create dominoes like that, and we can remove that defender by so we can actually work on that. And that's the reason why we use this kind of representative dial so that we can teach, you know, skills, but also team concepts as well in a in a simplified way.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 37:15

I want to shift gears a little bit and and kind of talk about your experience and and experience like Alex and and Will have when it comes to uh a couple of levels of basketball. So you you're dealing with high school coaches, AIU coaches, NBA, WNBA, college coaches. Well walk me and I have some experience in this in industry, what it's like to coach people on teaming skills and leadership skills, and they're like, well, that's not what I learned. So what is it like to go in an organization that has a a let's pick your level of coaching and show them these things. What what's the normal feedback you get from coaches that let's start with the ones that are skeptical about this. What what do they normally say about it?

SPEAKER_02 37:51

The ones that I get I guess uh for me personally, I've I've always been in situations where if I'm doing workshops or having meetings with coaches, it's because they're, you know, they're keen to learn and and they you they really want to learn about these concepts. So they're very open-minded and they have a growth mindset. But, you know, sometimes I've attended camps and uh and you know, try to speak to as as many coaches as possible to not only, you know, speak to them about the CLA, but also learn from them and their experiences. And I guess the main pushback is always, you know, the the the feet the fundamentals piece. Like, oh, the players need to learn the fundamentals before um they can actually we can put them in a game to actually rep it out. So that's the main pushback we get from it. And I I'd say, I'd say from speaking to like the non-believers.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 38:31

And what so here's what I'm running into from time to time is is, you know, AAU coaches usually are like, well, I already know how to do this. I went through college, I I played D1 basketball, I played a little bit of time overseas, I did this, I know what I'm doing. I'm like, well, that might be true, but have you ever learned from somebody outside your environment? Uh have you ever have you ever and that's what I you know, I look at Alex's background. And by the way, as we were talking, I think Portland's playing a game at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah, it's crazy.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 38:57

It's eleven o'clock on Tuesday when we're recording this, and I think there's a game on. I think it has to do with the I don't know why they're playing it on a Tuesday game. But anyway, I I I'm curious about that. When when these coaches see this, they and you see you see it on X threads and other threads where people push back up. It doesn't work because this and that. Or you I already do it. And then you go to their practice and you see them doing weaves and you see them doing uh what's that? I can get that name wrong. That one drill where you stand underneath the basket and do the left and right arm. The mic and drill. And I'm like, when I've ever seen anybody do that underneath the basket without being defended against, right? Yeah. It's kind of weird. Or or uh even this is past week, I was watching my daughter have to throw with one of my daughters have to throw with their left hand. It's it's eye water because she's she's horrible at it, right? She can't do it. So that's what she has to practice in the in in in her sessions now is working that that left-handed throw.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah. I I I think, Brian, it's it's you know, it's really hard to ask someone to do something they've never done before. And I remember back to when myself and Alex started working at London Lions together. His first construction, I think our first practice session, his first, and I said this on another podcast before, but it was like our first practice session, we were in stations, so there were different coaches at different stations, maybe four players at each station. All right, guys, you have to do a different small-sided game every three minutes, and I'm gonna keep constantly rotating the players. And it was like, what? Like, you know, like no, no kind of prep time before, it was just kind of thrown in the fire. So that was, you know, it was doomed from the beginning. But when I say that in a good way, because it forced us to think on the fly and think creatively. Now, when you tried these uh small-sided games, I think a really great thing about you know on-air drills is that you see success. So as a coach, and especially if someone's watching, if the parents are watching, you're looking at that practice and be like, wow, man, they're you know, the players are organized, they're in lines, they're they're having a high success rate, you know, maybe like 99% because they're wide open, getting wide open layups, they're able to make every pass. And and so that looks good, it looks clean, it feels good. So as a coach, you you leave the practice and you're like, yep, today we got better. But when you're in a CLA environment, uh, you know, I my rule of thumb is always I want 70%, 30%. So 70% success rate, 30% fail rate. But that doesn't mean that they're gonna be making the layups at the 70%. It just means that whatever intention that we're working on, they're getting it right, whether that's making, you know, the correct, the correct decision, whether it's a pass decision, shoot decision. So they could be literally missing every shot. It could be one of those days where the defense is guarded, but they're they're executing correctly and you know it's it's they're doing it well. So my first practice, not my first, but one of my first practices, players were just missing everything. Uh, you know, the the competition level was high. And I just felt, you know, no matter what constraints I put, I just couldn't help them put the ball in the basket. So I left the practice and I spoke to an assistant coach that was helping me out at that practice at the time. And I was like, man, it's just terrible. I feel bad, you know, the CLA thing, I don't like it. And then he was like, George, that was one of the best practices I've seen, and he had more experience with it because the, you know, the players were constantly having to adapt on the fly. They were having to, you know, be challenged. So it wasn't easy for them. And he thought that the the challenge point was just right as well, even though, you know, maybe they missed more than they normally would. So I say all that to say it's really easy to be in an environment where you're kind of in control as the coach, but the game doesn't work like that. And I think that's the main message. You want to put your players in the same environment that they'll see in the game. And that's where, as coaches, we need to take a step back and let the game do the teaching. And for us, we're just kind of guiding the players, helping them out as much as we we can. So almost giving them like a you know, a sign, like, no, maybe that's not the right way to go. Like, look over here, but you're not trying to tell them everything, you're not prescribing every solution for them. You really want them to explore and find the the answers out for themselves within the game.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 42:49

So I'm gonna share something with you. Uh I've learned this in the past that we learn more from failure than success. So when we're running, when we run simulations and I think back to my time in the name in the Navy, what needs to happen is uh you if you're failing in front of others that are failing too or struggling, you're gonna learn more, right? So you when we do teaming drills, when we do simulations where we're teaching teaming skills, those non-technical skills, we want to put people in a in a in a we call it anthrocomplexity. It's human and machine manipulation of the environment. So that the the simulations we have naturally manipulate or put constraints on the environment. And then we can put constraints on the environment by moving people, by adding music, by removing people from a system for a moment or two. And what that does is it it changes how how things work. But what we don't want is we don't want success all the time in there. Yeah, I mean, you want success in little increments, but you're gonna learn more from failure. So that's what I just heard from you is it's when coaches and parents will add the parent side of this. If I go to a practice and I see kids missing things and it does kind of look sloppy, I'm gonna go, they're not learning anything. And that's actually not true. We we want to create those conditions because that's how you learn. And I I say I I tell my I tell my girls this too. I'm like, it's great that you keep practicing the same thing over and over to feel success, but that's not how you're gonna learn, right? Yeah. Uh you know, doing the same thing over and over and over just because you're really good at it. You gotta go do things you're not good at, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Yeah, absolutely. And and I think it, you know, it the the research, there's there's been a lot of research, and one one that I I think Rob Gray even made a pop podcast on this, and it was they they did two case studies, and it was one group that did, you know, on air, normal like traditional uh layup lines uh unopposed, and then another group that uh I think it was shooting actually, if if I'm not mistaken. And then another, but it either way, they did another group that skills, but they were opposed, they had defenders on there. And they, you know, and they would they practiced and then they did the test afterwards, and they found that and and the test was

Learning from failure: what the research shows

SPEAKER_02 44:43

actually the so they did the test on unopposed environments. So it was a one on you know, on air drills. And what they found was that the players that practice with defense where they were forced to fail were act actually performed better in the unopposed environment than the players that practice in this environment. So that makes sense. Yeah, super interesting.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 45:03

Yeah, so this goes back to uh train like you fight, fight like you train. That that's uh again, SEALs do this, uh special operators do this. We did it in fighter aviation. This is how you well, for us, and it makes sure you don't have to go fight that game because we don't want to in in our world in in combat. You don't want to go to combat because that's the last uh you know that's uh that's the last thing anybody wants, to be honest with you. But in sports, uh you're always working to play that game, that Saturday, Sunday game, or that Tuesday mid-afternoon game that uh Portland's playing right now. Yeah, exactly. But I mean that's where you want to go go implement these things, or actually just show that uh go go find other competition that uh can can sharpen your skills. So I I got a couple other questions for you, actually plenty more. When it comes to awareness in the US of CLA compared to what's going on in Europe, and and I had a conversation with a local trainer here, and you see these conversations online that uh European players are starting to dominate the NBA. And you can look at the list of the top ten NBA players, and most of them come from Europe at the moment. Why is that? Why why are European players seemingly outperforming US players? And and let me let's build on with this more. I may be wrong on this, but I saw Portland, they brought in a players that weren't necessarily from the U.S. I'm talking about the Portland Fire. And I I think there are like Duke andor North Carolina, whose coach is now the former coach of the Nuggets, is doing the same thing. I can't think of his name right now. But we're seeing a lot of coaches in college and and in the NBA pull from Europe and actually not just Europe, but overseas. Can you talk a little bit about that, why that is?

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yes, and uh yeah, his name escapes me as well. Uh trying to get it. But um, but yeah, no, I I mean I wish I could tell you like a defin definitive answer. For me, the biggest thing as to why Europeans are catching up, and and you know, of course the game has grown, so now everyone plays around the world. The popularity of the sport, I think, comes comes in first place. And that's you know, credit to the US for kind of really popularizing the sport and what the NBA has done for the sport. But then my my biggest thing is just a shot clock. You you still have the majority of states in the US don't have a shot clock. And and and to me, like in the games, you know, I I coached at a US camp and it got to a point where it was the last two minutes and the other team just held the ball. And those are the most important, that's the most important time that the players have because the stakes are so high at that time. You know, if it's a five-point game, you know, that's crunch time. But the players aren't able to experience crunch time because the other team's tactic is just to hold the ball. So you're resorted to file, you're

Why European players are catching up: shot clock, reps, coach education

SPEAKER_02 47:34

fouling, and then you know, it's it and takes so much away. So simply having a 24-second shot clock, and coaches can actually do this at practice. I really recommend like always having a shot clock at practice, regardless of if your state has it or not. And and and I would even go further and say add variable shot clock. So it's not always 24 seconds. If you're playing a half-court game, maybe it's a 10-second shot clock. Maybe you're maybe you're if you're playing one-on-one, it's a three or four-second shot clock, but like always add some kind of time constraint because it's more realistic to you know to the game. So I think that's number one, the fact that Europe has the shot clock, so players are just making more decisions. And then number two is the the practice to game ratio. So obviously in Europe, you know, it's it's widely documented and and you know, people share it everywhere that they practice and then on the weekend they'll play a game, kind of kind of as the you know, the blueprint for it. Whereas in the NBA, it's all or the in the US, it's almost the opposite. It's like, you know, they play X amount of games and then they'll have one or two practices. So it's, you know, that in a game, of course, it's great if you know if you're the star player and you're getting all these reps, but if you're a player that, you know, isn't getting in the game or you're getting minimal minutes or minimal touches, then maybe you're not developing as you would if you were in practice and you were in small-sided games. Um, so I think that's number two. I I and I do think in Europe there is a lot more use of small-sided games in the games approach. So that's you know, that's been a thing for you know, even when I was in Slovenia, for example, the guy, the coaches there didn't use the CLA, but they were huge into the games approach. So everything they did was a small-sided game. So I think, you know, that's another thing. You know, instead of teaching skills on air, they would they would, you know, make it more of a game uh to teach like that. So I think those three things, and then the last thing is I don't know. I mean, I wish I, you know, we you spoke, you mentioned it briefly, but it's like the coach education. So in the US, anyone can be a coach, you know, former players can be coaches. And I think every I think every coach has really great intentions and they want to help the players as best as they can. But now in Europe, what you're seeing is the the coaches have to go through, you know, a one-week course or maybe an online course to get some kind of certificate to be level one, and then they can coach at a certain age, and then level two, and then level three, and then depending on the country of Europe, you know, uh it goes on and on. Um, so now you're seeing more qualified coaches that not only understand the rules of the game, but they also understand different ways to teach the game, different methodologies. And and you know, you're seeing obviously Norway, Sweden, they've adopted the CLA into their coaching program as well. And we even spoke about it last time uh, you know, we had a chance to speak about uh the UK kind of adopting more of the CLA as well with some of the work that Marianne is doing um there as a coach educator. So, you know, I think you you're getting a lot more of that in Europe and of you know overseas, Australia as well, than in the US, where you know anybody can be a coach.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 50:24

Yeah, so the uh pickup as far as in the US, uh I went, you know, I go to AAU games, uh, haven't gone to one in about four or five weeks, have a couple coming up this weekend, but sometimes I'll ask the coaches, just other coaches, are you you know, and you can actually see it if they're using it in their warm-ups and all that too. Generally, I haven't met a coach that is familiar with CLA. And and that's a small sample size. I'm not saying it's it's everybody. You know, when I brought our coaches in to talk about it, they're like, what are you talking about, man? I already do this. And I'm like, No, you don't, man. So so I'm I'm seeing in the US AAU coaches are not doing this. So where I'm going with this is if you are an AAU coach and you're doing this, you're gonna have an advantage, right? It's almost unfair, to be honest with you. Same in high school. Uh high school coaches, I'm not seeing that as much either. They're like, in fact, I don't I have two copies of the book that I handed to coaches, and they're like, I've never seen this before, I've never heard about this before. I talked to athletic directors and they're like, never heard of this. I'm like, that's your job. Right? You should know more about this than me. I'm I don't do this for a living. I mean, other than uh on the industrial side. And then of course, uh, you know, I have this book here by Sean Mishka, and then I have all of Rob Gray's books, and of course, uh the book here that we brought up earlier, David Epstein's book on constraints, where he talks about the CLA a little bit in there, and he's been talking a little bit more since the book came out because of the popularity of it. But uh in the US, based on your experience, are is transforming basketball finding more clients here or is it still quite kind of quiet? Where are your clients coming from?

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Yeah, it's definitely growing. I think you know, the main thing is now that the NBA is adopting the CLA and you're seeing more and more, you know, CLA specialists get hired by teams, not only in the NBA, but the G League, UNBA. So now it's kind of you know breaking in. So it's becoming more popular. So it's easier for, you know, it's you'll see it on social media. So it's just more accessible. And and you know, credit to you know what we're doing at Transform Basketball and all the you know the authors there that you just mentioned for their books, we're it's it's more accessible now as well. It's easier to understand is you know how we started our conversation with the you know the the actual research being quite complex, you know, the the terminology. So, you know, it is it's definitely growing. Uh and it's and and I think it's just gonna continue to grow and the trend is gonna stay that way. I think I think the biggest thing is for coaches that they you know, having a growth mindset. And I think um, you know, for me personally, whenever I'm focused on learning and getting better and and going into any situation, whether that's coaching or whether I'm reading or whatever it is, just having a conversation on a podcast and and I go into it to learn and just have a growth mindset versus like, oh, let me get my opinions out because they're better. Then I can just, you know, I can absorb more, I can take more, I can be I can let my guard down, let my ego out a little bit. So it's super important, in my opinion, that coaches go into these conversations with, you know, with less of an ego and just more like let's learn, let me growth mindset. Because the same way as coaches, we tell our players, you know, you have to get better, you have to spend more time. I think for us, you know, we have to spend more time, we have to learn, we have to research. And whether that's strategic, tactical things or, you know, how to coach, how to practice plan, how to design small-sided games, how to give feedback. So all of that I think we can we can dedicate time to and have a growth mindset to learn and grow the game from that point, rather than just showing up at practice and telling the kids to do it while we're not doing. So we really have to model that behavior if we want the kids to to you know do the same.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 53:58

I kind of want to do this with you. I want to look project out about two years or three years down the road and uh look at the uh uh what's happening. And that and in my opinion, it's gonna look like this. Everybody's gonna say they're doing CLA, right? But they're probably not. Or or I hate to say do. They're using elements of CLA. There may be certifications in it. It may look like what we saw in uh software development where these there's these uh certification bodies that get you all these things. I I don't want to see that. I want to see, and this is based on my experience, I want to see true experts coming in from different domains, helping each other out and finding newer ways to get better, right? And that and that's kind of what I saw from when I looked at Alex's book and his background is this is not a tradition quote unquote traditional basketball coach, right? I I actually read something that he read played the trumpet or was was a musician too, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So conceptual offense is like jazz.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 54:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is, right. So highly interdependent activity, uh self-organizing, and then uh and that's when we talk about reciprocal teams, that's we usually use jazz ensemble and a basketball team to talk about that. And that's basically what business leaders are looking at when they talk about teams is you need a reciprocal team. You need uh where your offense plays defense, your defense plays offense, it's highly interdependent. That's called reciprocal, all right. So when we're talking about the importance of nonlinear pedagogy applied to sport, that's the same approach we're taking when you want your kids to develop their skills in school, right? Yeah. That's and that's what you want them to do when they're learning to adapt to a changing environment. So why won't you, as an athletic director, want what's happening on one side of your, you know, in the classroom happening on the court? And that's what we're trying to invite here is look, you you need to look outside uh the domain of basketball. We're just talking about that today, to find out how to do this better. And I think that's what Alex did. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Yeah, absolutely. I yeah, you know, and having come and I think especially, you know, the early episodes of Transforming Basketball, where he's having conversations with everyone. It's not just basketball coaches, it's researchers, it's coaches from other sports. And I think, you know, just learning as much as you can about the CLA and other domains and then applying it into actual basketball. Because, you know, and and I think it's really fun as well for me, for example, to look at different sports and take their rules and apply it. And I say this all

Two years out: certifications vs true cross-domain experts

SPEAKER_02 56:20

the time, Brian. I'm like, you know, what what is a different, what is a sport if not the same game with different rules? And and it's, you know, and it's the and it's the what constraints are. So it's essentially like, you know, basketball and football. It's played on the different surface, different uh size ball, different amount of players. And then you obviously basketball played with five players, hardwood, you know, size seven balls for for men's. And so it's like it's the same game, but we're we're just changing the constraints. So it's really important for me as a coach. I look at other sports and I'm like, how can I take elements of this and add it into my practice because it'll be good. So like I think uh and and I, you know, a really good one I saw, and it's not necessarily about sport, but it's about the the army. It's like Joe Mazzula did a did a drill at practice, and I heard one of his players talking about it where it was like he played like uh like war noises where it's like gunshots and you know, people in the trenches, and they would do they would do a conditioning drill for 10 minutes and with this kind of backdrop in it. So it's kind of like you know, that that's a great way to incorporate elements of uh you know other uh domains into the sport and and really make the you know the players also think like, you know, this is a privilege to play this game. So I think at the highest level, that's a great way to use, you know, the CLA. So it, you know, I I I completely agree with what you said. And and I do want to say in terms of the holistic development, I think basketball-wise, strategically, you know, you talked about developing people holistically as well. But like let's say transit, you know, half-court offense, you want to play a certain way, but then you can't just play this certain way, and then the other four phases of the game, transition offense, transition defense, half-court defense, you play a different way that doesn't, you know, tie together to your other way. So there has to be a holistic development. So a great example of this is like if you want to play fast, you also want to stop the other team from playing fast. So it's like, how can we modify our transition defense principles? So as soon as we shoot in them in offense, whether it's half court or transition offense, we're right there trying to stop the other team and slow them down. So it and this is where like I think uh you know the concepts like tagging up system comes in, which is basically like I think it's very similar to a uh

Jazz, reciprocal teams, and holistic development

SPEAKER_02 58:30

a concept taken from soccer or football. And it's like as soon as you lose the ball, so that if the shot goes up, instead of getting back on defense, which has kind of been the norm for decades in basketball, if you want to be good at transition defense, you press up, and that's what they do in football or soccer, I guess. And you press up and you try to win the ball back. So it's it's a different form of that. And again, it just goes back to one holistic development for the team standpoint, and also looking at other sports and seeing what they do and then trying to you know bring it over to basketball.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 59:00

This is interesting because watching NBA, and I'm gonna use the nuggets, anytime they shoot, you usually see two of the defender or from the offense immediately go back. Get back. As soon as the ball's released, they go back. What I'm hearing from you is uh probably it might be better to post or uh what'd you call it to to man up? Tag up. Tag up, right? Yeah, and okay, so basically you're taking away the affordance from them on yeah, that's what you're doing, right? Yeah, you're taking away the moment you go back, yeah. The moment you go back, you're you're you're you're giving up space.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

You're giving up space, right? And they can just dribble up and and you know play with speed, just how you want to play with speed. And um, and then by pressing up on them, then you kind of you know force them to slow down, change directions, you know, and everyone and then everyone can flow into their offense, but you just slow them down a little bit.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 59:46

Yeah. So let me ask you this. Uh when you I I'm sure you do watch the Portland Fire. What what do you see happening there? I mean, could I again I I the kids and I watch it. We we root for, you know, we live in Virginia Beach, but we're just we like watching them because in my opinion, you have these uh unknowns that are doing well in in a league that is is just stacked, right? So what what is it like for you when you watch one of those games? What do you see?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:10

I really enjoy, you know, more more than the games, I really enjoy Alex's presser because it really gives you an insight into what they're trying their principles and what they're trying to do on the court. So I really enjoy kind of seeing some of the words they like, you know, today in the pregame presser for Connecticut, he talked about surfing the show coverage. And it's and it's basically when the show defender steps out, you know, sometimes you want to use speed to get around them to be able to either make the pocket pass or, you know, the the pass to the open player. And it's like I, you know, that's that's something that when we were at London Lions, we didn't have that terminology. So you see a lot of these new concepts like spill, right? Spill is a transition, an emergency transition defense uh concept as well. And and so, you know, you kind of see, and then and then when I watch the game, I'm like, ah, there it is, you know, there's there's a surf, there's a spill. And so uh so for me, that's really fun. I mean, when I watch Portland, the biggest thing for me is just how hard they play. And I think as coaches, we you know, if we can get our teams to re-cause at the end of the day, coaching is not necessarily about how much you know, but it's how much you can give to the players and and make them play to you know the type of basketball you want from them. So there's about buy-in, there's uh, you know, rapport, uh, you know, a lot of things need to go into that. But with the fire, they play so hard and they're always fighting to the last whistle. And, you know, I absolutely love that. And and and one thing for me as as a coach is the the holistic development for athletes. And you know, Alex mentions this in his pressers all the time, where it's like, yeah, maybe they could play, you know, their better players, like, you know, a few more minutes per game and then and then have the other developing players play less, but then it's they're kind

Tag up: taking away the affordance

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

of shortcutting the development part of you know the the younger players, right? So I think it's super important, you know, for all all levels of the game, if you really want to develop and you have to think long term a little bit. And you, you know, maybe you sacrifice um, you know, certain possessions here by by having younger players play, but what you get in the long run is so much more. And I I love that about the fire. They're 10 deep, and because they're 10 deep, they're able to play with pace and tag up and you know, pretty much play a full court game the whole time. Whereas, you know, the Nuggets you mentioned, you see some of the guys getting back. I don't think they have the depth to play with the same the same way. So, you know, you you're not gonna ask Nikola Jokic to play 40 minutes a game and ask him to tag up every time the shot goes up and you know, ask him to it's it's you know, it's I don't think it's fair. So you do have to take all these considerations into account. But you know, that's the one thing for me about watching the fire is just the holistic athlete development, watching them grow, you know, and and and you're seeing it every time.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:02:51

So let me throw this at you. This is important because uh this is what I want to see with my girls' teams, yes, is development, not necessarily winning. And the coaches are like, what's the difference? I mean, I'm like, they'll win. I I know they'll win, but not right now, right? They they would if you're going to do this, let's take coach A and Coach B. Coach A is is well known and he goes out and finds the best players and has a great team every year. That's pretty cool, man. Good for you. Coach B develops players and uh can can develop players his whole life, and he, you know, two years down the road, three years down the road, he has a winning team that can beat Coach A's ass any day of the week, right? Right? That's what you want. That's what we that I I'm sick of these coaches running around going, oh, I'm gonna bring this coach, this player, this player, this player, and I'm gonna create a great team. No, you're not. A better team is a better way to develop people is to develop them through your system. And that's what you just said, and I think that's what, and if this holds true, what we should see in the second half of the season, Portland should be getting a little bit better, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Yeah, absolutely. And and then, you know, and whether they get better and it results in wins, I I again it go it goes back to winning and development. It's like they can get better and and you know, and still lose, but are they still are they remaining competitive? Are they sticking to their principles of play? Because at the end of the day, I think you do need talent to win. You know, players have to make shots. And um, and you know, the the fire, I think from game one to whatever game they're on now, 20-something, they they're you can see that they're you know, they're more adaptable finishers, the players. You can see that they're better decision makers, they make better decisions with dominoes. You know, they have certain like, you know, I call it the p pin and slide, where there's you know, instead of cutting and sliding to the corner, which you're would just see a lot in the NBA, Alex is really kind of, you know, he's taken it where it's like they they cut to screen to take advantage of their elite three-point shooting on that team. So again, you know, he's adapted the same principle one can't guard two, but he's using it for his team. So it's uh, you know, it's it's super fascinating. Yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:04:45

That's great. Oh, I do want to talk about the NBA a little bit more. Dusty May left Michigan. Yeah. Right. Uh so he I I understand Michigan did a little bit of this, is that correct? And and Dusty loves it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

He loves the CLA. So and you can even see it now when you you know see the MAVs on social media, they're they're doing CLA activities, yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:05:02

Yeah, I saw they hired uh Joe Boylan. Joe Joe was with uh Memphis when I was track uh tracking him a few years ago. He created Cog Cognition Coach. I'm not sure if he if he's worked with Alex or not, but I know that some of these guys were featured in the article last October that has uh Wemby in it. So uh so I I do know that Dusty has hired Joe, who's a skill acquisitions guy that understands CLA and writes about it quite a bit. So we're starting to see this more and more.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:29

More and more, yeah. And it's what we spoke about, right? And and and I think it's gonna continue to happen. And and and even in the G League, you're seeing it more and more because now I g I guess teams can really experiment with their G League affiliates. And so you're seeing it more and more, you know, more hires with the CLA and teams are just trying to be creative and and and try and get a competitive advantage like that as well.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:05:49

Hey, how about this?

Develop players or buy them: Coach A vs Coach B

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:05:50

Uh you mind giving me a little background on uh I know you guys got a new website. I can share that here at a moment. You talk a little bit about what you guys are up to, and I'll share the screen. And I think this is your new site, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Yes. Well, so this is this is uh yeah, this is our website, and then we're we had a new uh like a new community website. So when you log in, then you can see like you know a brand new community function, which it's you know, it's just more user-friendly than the the older one that we had on a previous platform. And essentially, you know, i we have all the resources there, so over 350 small-sided games, uh, clinics uh from our clinicians, clinics from Alex Sorama himself, like exclusive clinics, um, and then of course, you know, a community area, plus much much more um that members can go in and communicate and learn from each other. And um, I my favorite thing about the new community is that there's a the there's a search function and anything you want, you can just type it in. Like whether you're let's say you want to learn more about one can't guard two, you type it in, and then you get videos, you get clinics, you get transcripts of videos of where it's talked about, and then you can really do a deep dive on whatever it is you want to learn about. And it's not just the basketball side of it, it's the theoretical side of it as well. And um, you know, you know, there's over 700 coaches where we collaborate and and share these, and it's you know, it's just a really fun community to be a part of. So I'm really proud of what we're doing.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:07:09

So a lot of these coaches just picked up the book and are are uh following what you do, right? They they haven't gone necessarily gone through clinics, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Yeah, you know, they you know, picked up the book, saw something online on social media, have attended has attended a clinic by Alex or by another clinician, and you know, just you know, word of mouth, so just spreading it like that. That's great.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:07:28

So hey, uh we'll wrap it up there. I there's so many more questions I want to bounce off you have, but we've been going for about 60 minutes already.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Yeah, yeah.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:07:35

How about this? Uh let's keep you on for a minute and then we'll uh we'll we'll wrap this up. But anything else you want to share with our our listeners?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

No, you know, I you know, really enjoy this conversation. I I think the the one thing, maybe the one thing I want to say to the listeners is going back to the the youth,

NBA adoption: Dusty May, the Mavs, and the G League

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

the you know, keeping the the players first. And I think, you know, you know, if you're like, oh, I don't believe in the CLA, I you know, you know, it's it's not for me. My my thing is just give it a try as a coach, you know, and it doesn't have to be your whole practice session, maybe just one activity. You can do the warm-up with, you know, adding some kind of defense in. And and we have resources, you know, you just showed the website, you can go to transform and beball.com and we we have free small-sided game booklets, free resources that coaches can use to use our small-sided games in their practice environments to get, you know, to get them started, and then they can start using it. But my whole thing is like give it a try, even if it's one activity in your practice, or even if it's, you know, maybe one practice a week until you get comfortable installing it. Like give it a try because at the end of the day, you're putting players first. And like I said before, you know, participation and making sure that players come back and are having fun is is the most important thing.

Brian "Ponch" Rivera 1:08:45

That's a great way to wrap it up. I appreciate it. I'll keep you on here for a second and uh we'll say goodbye to our listeners. Uh, thanks for being here, George. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:51

Appreciate it.